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I mean. The hobby's doing fine financially per several reports including this one from PBS (and I quote):

"According to industry estimates, hobby game sales soared during the pandemic, increasing from about $1.6 billion in 2019 to over $2.6 billion in 2021. Tabletop roleplaying games saw a 31 percent increase in overall sales in 2020. In 2022, Dungeons & Dragons alone generated some $100 million to $150 million."

People rumble over the rules but people will always rumble over the rules no matter what edition or system it is. There's the big games that stay popular for decades but the OSR has been very successful and the storygamers are really pushing the boundaries of what rpgs are and what you can do with them.

And the money is flowing. This hobby is not the "starving artist" occupation it once was. You can kickstart your composition book full of house-rules into millions. Of dollars. The game doesn't even have to be finished or to quote Matt Coville:

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Even if WotC crashes and burns, the greater tabletop rpg community will be fine. Fine and dandy.
 
TheoryofGame said:
Even if WotC crashes and burns, the greater tabletop rpg community will be fine. Fine and dandy.
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Personally, I'm not worried about the longterm health of rpgs and I have no ill will towards WOTC (or good will, really). For me, what happens to WOTC is idle curiosity, like discussing who will do well in the next sports season or watching an animal video and wondering how it got it's paw stuck and if it's going to get its other paw stuck, too.
 
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Ladybird said:
Yeah, I certainly don't feel like I'm lacking in access to opinionated games. I think for a minority market segment we're being served wonderfully well.
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The technological revolution that is upsetting book publishing has hit RPGs hard. The side effect relevant to your statement is that this revolution has lowered the barrier to the point where serious professional projects can be accomplished (and distributed) in the time one has for a hobby. The factors that caused this (Internet, Digital books, PoD, etc.) have allowed even narrow niches to thrive, with many having a wealth of works available. This is compounded on the IP side by the widespread availability of 3PP programs and/or content under open licenses.
 
Sable Wyvern said:
The fact that non-D&D can't compete with D&D doesn't tell us anything about whether a bold and adventurous new D&D would sell better or worse than a bland and safe one.
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I think the lesson about what kind of D&D is going to sell or not, can be learned from the lessons of the 4E and 5E transitions. A game like D&D needs to balance a wide range of fans. D&D doesn't need to be experimental. It just needs to be recognizably D&D to the various factions of the hobby that make up the player base.
 
Fenris-77 said:
View attachment 81050
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This cartoon totally misses the point of why this happens. Running tabletop RPG campaigns is not intuitive. Folks tend to gravitate to and like systems that work with and reinforce how they think of X, With X being a particular genre or setting. The second character's statement that the second system is simpler and better focused is an opinion, not a factual observation.

To the first character's credit he looked over what he was given and decided to make a different creative choice and was mocked for it. Not cool.
 
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BedrockBrendan said:
I think the lesson about what kind of D&D is going to sell or not, can be learned from the lessons of the 4E and 5E transitions. A game like D&D needs to balance a wide range of fans. D&D doesn't need to be experimental. It just needs to be recognizably D&D to the various factions of the hobby that make up the player base.
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I think the current issues D&D is experience are not so much the rules but the lack luster content they have released in recent years. At the end of the day, we still have only 2 full rule expansions (Xanathar, Talsha) and some partial rules expansions like Sword Coast and Mordenkainens. This is a very different situation than what existed at the end of 3.0, 3.5, Pathfinder 1e, and 4e run.

What was the last Wizards release that any of us got excited about or looked that interesting? For me, it was Saltmarsh in 2019. The last totally original to 5e work I heard a lot of excitement about was Descent into Avernus. Some of the stuff they released after 2019 was OK, but the duds kept piling up, especially in the setting department. While the OGL fiasco evaporated the goodwill Wizards built up, the real kicker is forgetting to show up to the 50th anniversary ball game with anything beyond a token effort through 3rd party licenses.

A good current example is the upcoming Vecna, Eve of Ruin versus what happened prior to the Curse of Strahd.

It not a problem with the D&D 5e system, is the problem of the parent company fumbling the presentation and management of their product line.
 
Good lord. It's a cartoon. One I find quite funny. I don't think we need go looking to be offended on behalf of the characters therein do we? Not that I want to 'discuss' the cartoon, but it's funny for a reason and it isn't missing it's point. The fact that you needed to drop multiple paragraphs about how uncool and wrong the cartoon is, um, well its a lot, but whatever. Obviously you feel strongly about the cartoon's subject matter. OK, read you loud and clear.
 
spun off the overly verbose side note to focus on the two paragraphs which convey my main point and ire.
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As a side note, this is exactly the kind of thing that those publishing or sharing material in the OSR had to deal with, especially prior to 2014, before the ecumenical marketing push Wizards was making before the release of 5e. But it continues to the present.

I wasn't immune to this having been a big fan of and used GURPS for several decades. Back in the mid-2000s, I dealt with D&D, both old and new, because it was the only practical path to realize my projects (setting stuff). But rather than bitch about it, I figured it out. The historical research that was going on at the time really helped in this.

If I had any talent for writing horror I am sure I could figure out how to make a decent RPG based on a version of D&D. As for 5e specifically, the main reason I don't use it creatively on a regular basis is because of the 20 level spread and the amount of work it takes to account for the range. But if I have an idea like I did with the packet of classes, I have no problem making it work and work well.
 
Fenris-77 said:
That cartoon isn't about your experiences in OSR publishing Rob. Obviously it makes you think of that, and there's not a thing wrong with that, but that doesn't mean that what it's about.
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Rob clearly doesn't spend enough time on r/RPG.

"I want to run a game about common folk investigating cosmic horror in the 1920s. Should I use D&D?"
 
Sable Wyvern said:
Rob clearly doesn't spend enough time on r/RPG.

"I want to run a game about common folk investigating cosmic horror in the 1920s. Should I use D&D?"
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Not should. "How do I houserule 5e to make it happen? The fighters and wizards are too powerful for common folk. Maybe I should just deny fighters all armor and weapons? What do you think?"
 
Sable Wyvern said:
Rob clearly doesn't spend enough time on r/RPG.

"I want to run a game about common folk investigating cosmic horror in the 1920s. Should I use D&D?"
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It just as easily refers to those annoying people who want to claim that PbtA (or any game) is obviously the only answer to the question "what system should I use for campaign pitch X".
 
robertsconley said:
The technological revolution that is upsetting book publishing has hit RPGs hard. The side effect relevant to your statement is that this revolution has lowered the barrier to the point where serious professional projects can be accomplished (and distributed) in the time one has for a hobby. The factors that caused this (Internet, Digital books, PoD, etc.) have allowed even narrow niches to thrive, with many having a wealth of works available. This is compounded on the IP side by the widespread availability of 3PP programs and/or content under open licenses.
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Well, exactly, that was my point.
 
Fenris-77 said:
It just as easily refers to those annoying people who want to claim that PbtA (or any game) is obviously the only answer to the question "what system should I use for campaign pitch X".
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Hence, I edited my post to omit the sidenote as my point extends beyond what happened with myself or the OSR.

I don't care for a PbtA-based RPG myself, but I can understand why someone would make it their default choice for campaigns or sharing stuff. It aligns with how they think of RPGs and RPG campaigns.
 
Sable Wyvern said:
Rob clearly doesn't spend enough time on r/RPG.

"I want to run a game about common folk investigating cosmic horror in the 1920s. Should I use D&D?"
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I'd argue that the whole problem with this line of discussion in rpgs is that it's the wrong question.

The real question is what kind of game structure do you envisage being used in this 1920s game? The assumption here is that the game structure would be more like Call of Cthulhu in which case of course D&D is the wrong game, because Call of Cthulhu already exists and the structure that it uses was invented by that game for that game.

But if it turned out the GM envisaged the game playing out as investigators basically going to a series of locations, eg an Insane Asylum, a haunted house, some sewers, and exploring with flashlights as torches and abominations and mad cultists jump out at the shadows and they fight there way through, then you could definitely hack D&D to do that.

D&D as a basic mechanical approach is actually pretty flexible in terms of genre. It's less flexible in terms of structure.
 
robertsconley said:
Hence, I edited my post to omit the sidenote as my point extends beyond what happened with myself or the OSR.

I don't care for a PbtA-based RPG myself, but I can understand why someone would make it their default choice for campaigns or sharing stuff. It aligns with how they think of RPGs and RPG campaigns.
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Ahh, yeah that makes sense. I wasn't taking a poke at you, I was just taken aback by the depth of feeling provoked by something I thought was just sort of funny. I have no issue with people having a go-to system, that's common as dirt and super useful for a whole host of reasons. I do sometimes get a laugh at the extent to which some people will contort their favorite rules to try and make them do something that they aren't really designed to do well (hence why I find the comic funny). Anyway, we're all sorted out here. :thumbsup:
 
Fenris-77 said:
It just as easily refers to those annoying people who want to claim that PbtA (or any game) is obviously the only answer to the question "what system should I use for campaign pitch X".
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I have no doubt whatsoever that it happens but, funnily enough, I don't think I've seen much of that.

I was surprised to see the unofficial Continuum reboot uses PbtA. But that's someone actually doing the work to make it, not telling someone else to.
 
Ladybird said:
I don't actually disagree with you on D&D not making enough money. Whatever monetisation is coming for One is going to be brutal.

Where I disagree with you is on whether an opinionated (eg. Specific, not bland) RPG would make them more money; there are plenty out there, based on some of the biggest franchises around and not just random obscure gamer stuff, and D&D is still sitting on top of the sales charts. Just like it almost always has.

We're the outliers. The market clearly wants bland, because alternatives are out there already and being ignored.
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First of all, I want to clarify that I don't want D&D made for me. make I'm not all that interested in D&D at the moment. I've just worked in the RPGs field at various levels over the decades and find it a little sad that at a time when D&D had a cultural moment, we had such incompetents running D&D. Also,
I'm not asking for them to make D&D for grognards. I'm watching my 5E-playing nephews and their friends complete indifference to what WotC is putting out.

I also don't view popular entertainment as contemptuously bland. I like a good popcorn movie, and believe it takes a lot of talent to make one. I don't believe anyone working at WotC now has any idea how to make a blockbuster.

What have we got coming up? Quests from the Infinite Staircase. "Six remastered classic adventures from D&D's history: The Lost City, When a Star Falls, Beyond the Crystal Cave, Pharaoh, The Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth, and Expeditions to the Barrier Peaks". As a an old gamer, I'm bored by this endless rehashing. Some of these already have 5E "remasters" (The marketing hackery just oozes from that vocabulary choice) from Goodman to add to the sad emptiness of WotC's vision. And is this fan pandering supposed to appeal to the mainstream? WotC management is like Lucasfilm management. They are just scrambling together the ingredients made by talented people over and over again and hoping somehow it will let them recapture their success.

Even when they actually attempt to make take D&D in a new direction to appeal to young gamers, they do it in the most embarrassing way possible. In the '80s, TSR could tap into kids current interests with brilliantly designed and packaged games like Marvel Super Heroes. The 5E attempt to tap into the zeitgeist was that stupid Rick and Morty starter set.

I'm not disappointed in Hasbro for chasing the mainstream. I'm disappointed in their utter incompetence at it.
 
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robertsconley said:
I think the current issues D&D is experience are not so much the rules but the lack luster content they have released in recent years. At the end of the day, we still have only 2 full rule expansions (Xanathar, Talsha) and some partial rules expansions like Sword Coast and Mordenkainens. This is a very different situation than what existed at the end of 3.0, 3.5, Pathfinder 1e, and 4e run.

What was the last Wizards release that any of us got excited about or looked that interesting? For me, it was Saltmarsh in 2019. The last totally original to 5e work I heard a lot of excitement about was Descent into Avernus. Some of the stuff they released after 2019 was OK, but the duds kept piling up, especially in the setting department. While the OGL fiasco evaporated the goodwill Wizards built up, the real kicker is forgetting to show up to the 50th anniversary ball game with anything beyond a token effort through 3rd party licenses.

A good current example is the upcoming Vecna, Eve of Ruin versus what happened prior to the Curse of Strahd.

It not a problem with the D&D 5e system, is the problem of the parent company fumbling the presentation and management of their product line.
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Yes, my last post was written over the course of a couple of hours while I dealt with work, but you beat me to the point.
 
Fenris-77 said:
Good lord. It's a cartoon. One I find quite funny. I don't think we need go looking to be offended on behalf of the characters therein do we? Not that I want to 'discuss' the cartoon, but it's funny for a reason and it isn't missing it's point. The fact that you needed to drop multiple paragraphs about how uncool and wrong the cartoon is, um, well its a lot, but whatever. Obviously you feel strongly about the cartoon's subject matter. OK, read you loud and clear.
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If it makes you feel better, I've seen that exact conversation in real life repeatedly.
 
Baulderstone said:
If it makes you feel better, I've seen that exact conversation in real life repeatedly.
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Just adding too, the frustration in these conversations comes from the 5E player repeatedly being unhappy with their attempts to mod 5E. It's not contempt for the 5E player. It's more like concern for watching a friend engage in self-abuse over and over.
 
TJS said:
I'd argue that the whole problem with this line of discussion in rpgs is that it's the wrong question.

The real question is what kind of game structure do you envisage being used in this 1920s game? The assumption here is that the game structure would be more like Call of Cthulhu in which case of course D&D is the wrong game, because Call of Cthulhu already exists and the structure that it uses was invented by that game for that game.

But if it turned out the GM envisaged the game playing out as investigators basically going to a series of locations, eg an Insane Asylum, a haunted house, some sewers, and exploring with flashlights as torches and abominations and mad cultists jump out at the shadows and they fight there way through, then you could definitely hack D&D to do that.

D&D as a basic mechanical approach is actually pretty flexible in terms of genre. It's less flexible in terms of structure.
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Yeah, this is my view. Most decent OSR stuff works because it very much focuses on D&D play structure as well as D&D mechanics. Esoteric Enterprises, Mazes & Minotaurs, Apes Victorious all use very different settings but the intended play structure is very much what D&D is good at and that's why they work.

The reason Gangbusters B/X fails for me is that it misunderstands mechanics (class/level) for play structure and so fails to recapture what makes D&D *and* Gangbusters good.

This applies to any game really. Forged in the Dark can do any setting, but the further it moves from the heist focused structure the less good the game probably is.

(I can be accused of a double standard here because of my love for Ghastly Affair, but really that just uses old D&D mechanics and then mutilates them so much it's no longer really an OSR or D&D game anyway).
 
sharps54 said:
Just for the record I deleted that post as I was worried I might be missing context, if I saw your quote first I would have left it up
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Yeah, I'm not a PbtA fan for various reasons (and I don't dislike narrative games. My life's ambition is still to make Tristram play Good Society: A Jane Austen RPG) but I'd agree here, it gets recommended for everything elsewhere but not here.
 
Baulderstone said:
Just adding too, the frustration in these conversations comes from the 5E player repeatedly being unhappy with their attempts to mod 5E. It's not contempt for the 5E player. It's more like concern for watching a friend engage in self-abuse over and over.
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My favorite is when they finally get tired of 5e, decide to try a new system, then immediately, before even playing the new system once, decide to try to start house ruling it to be more like the game they just left because they didn't like what it was doing. Then complain about what the new system is doing that they made it do.
 
A Fiery Flying Roll said:
Yeah, I'm not a PbtA fan for various reasons (and I don't dislike narrative games. My life's ambition is still to make Tristram play Good Society: A Jane Austen RPG) but I'd agree here, it gets recommended for everything elsewhere but not here.
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I don't like PbtA (there are a couple of PbtA games I do like, but it is a "I like this in spite of it being PbtA" things), and one of the most annoying things is not only the constant suggestions, but constantly seeing games that sound interesting until I open the kickstarter and find it is again... a pbta game.

I just want to hear about some new, cool RPG and it not be PbtA or based on 5e ;_;.
 
robertsconley said:
I think the current issues D&D is experience are not so much the rules but the lack luster content they have released in recent years. At the end of the day, we still have only 2 full rule expansions (Xanathar, Talsha) and some partial rules expansions like Sword Coast and Mordenkainens. This is a very different situation than what existed at the end of 3.0, 3.5, Pathfinder 1e, and 4e run.

What was the last Wizards release that any of us got excited about or looked that interesting? For me, it was Saltmarsh in 2019. The last totally original to 5e work I heard a lot of excitement about was Descent into Avernus. Some of the stuff they released after 2019 was OK, but the duds kept piling up, especially in the setting department. While the OGL fiasco evaporated the goodwill Wizards built up, the real kicker is forgetting to show up to the 50th anniversary ball game with anything beyond a token effort through 3rd party licenses.

A good current example is the upcoming Vecna, Eve of Ruin versus what happened prior to the Curse of Strahd.

It not a problem with the D&D 5e system, is the problem of the parent company fumbling the presentation and management of their product line.
Click to expand...

I think they need both: a system that is recognizably D&D and they need to have good support (and I think aiming the support at the GM rather than players is a better long term strategy)
 
A Fiery Flying Roll said:
The reason Gangbusters B/X fails for me is that it misunderstands mechanics (class/level) for play structure and so fails to recapture what makes D&D *and* Gangbusters good.
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To make a gratuitous plug, if you want an organized crime game, pick up Crime Network by our own BedrockBrendan BedrockBrendan .
A Fiery Flying Roll said:
Have you considered having the conversation in Exalted?
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I used to post over at TPB, so I have more than considered it.
 
A Fiery Flying Roll said:
Yeah, I'm not a PbtA fan for various reasons (and I don't dislike narrative games. My life's ambition is still to make Tristram play Good Society: A Jane Austen RPG) but I'd agree here, it gets recommended for everything elsewhere but not here.
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My issue with PbtA is that handing players a menu of actions they can take is completely at odds with the looseness I want from a narrative system.
 
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