My final WotC purchase.

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Acmegamer said:
I don't know, I feel that the core of DnD 5e is pretty simple and rules light. I kinda feel that folks expect to master things much too quickly with little to no effort these days.
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The idea of "roll 1d20, add a modifier, and hope it's above a target" is perfectly rules light. My complaint is that the more specific rules often are contradictory or unclear - like my example, the Devil's Sight invocation I alluded to. It says the Warlock can see normally in darkness, but not dim light. A torch emits bright light in a 20 ft. radius, meaning that a Warlock with this invocation sees normally for 20 ft., then is at Disadvantage for 20 ft. of dim light, and then can see perfectly again for 80 ft. beyond that. It's a million little things like this which make the system so obtuse.

Acmegamer said:
Also, the price for the Player's Handbook, Monster Manual and DMG, for the price are pretty reasonable, when taken into account inflation and the price of other hobby items. Heck for the matter the trio of books for the AD&D 1st edition when you take into account inflation add up to around the same cost as these three core DnD 5e books.

Edit: I mean, I'm kinda annoyed because I don't want to defend WotC or DnD since I'm over all not a big fan of either company or mechanics. But the facts are the facts.
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Sure, but I don't really think that Hasbro of all companies needs to charge $50 for a book. I can buy a cookbook of about the same print quality, length, and so on for half the price, or less. The reality is that D&D® is a "lifestyle" brand and they know that. And the fact that they have no PDFs, instead forcing you into using Beyond? Atrocious.
 
Baulderstone said:
I do have to add that AD&D 1E was way more expensive than most RPGs in the '80s. Especially when you also needed a Basic Set to have any hope of understanding it.
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OH GOD YES! in the 70s as well. And you needed Modules. And they sold packets of character sheets. It was a money operation from the start.

Like I said my dislike of TSR is well founded.
 
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MoonHunter said:
OH GOD YES! And you needed Modules. And they sold packets of character sheets. It was a money operation from the start.

Like I said my dislike of TSR is well founded.
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(sarcasm) Because TSR invented adventure modules and other companies like Chaosium would never expect players to buy such things. (saracasm)
 
Zeroth_Law said:
The idea of "roll 1d20, add a modifier, and hope it's above a target" is perfectly rules light. My complaint is that the more specific rules often are contradictory or unclear - like my example, the Devil's Sight invocation I alluded to. It says the Warlock can see normally in darkness, but not dim light. A torch emits bright light in a 20 ft. radius, meaning that a Warlock with this invocation sees normally for 20 ft., then is at Disadvantage for 20 ft. of dim light, and then can see perfectly again for 80 ft. beyond that. It's a million little things like this which make the system so obtuse.
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I've introduced a lot of people to RPGs over the years, and D&D is hard to teach because it simulates D&D, which is neither reality nor even how most fantasy fiction works. You need to understand the mechanical conventions just to operate in the world.

I've had a lot more luck getting people in the door with games like Call of Cthulhu, where players can just act intuitively.
 
Zeroth_Law said:
I think there's an interesting psychological phenomenon going on here. 5e is often called "rules light" (which... let's not beat a dead horse here...) or "beginner friendly" (I actually kind of agree with this one) but the reality is three rulebooks (O.K., two and a half - the DMG is almost useless) is a lot to parse. There are a lot of weird interactions in 5e that make mastering it really quite an undertaking. How many spells can you cast on a turn? Can a paladin actually hear or smell alignment? Can a warlock with the Devil's Sight holding a torch see properly? The list goes on. So when people finally feel competent playing 5e, they have kind of convinced themselves that all RPGs must be as obtuse and weirdly written as this. Then there's the sunken cost fallacy -- the core rules for 5e are (at MSRP) $150 not counting tax. I know they said the idea was to go back to the roots of DnD but that didn't have to account for inflation! So you have this entire generation of gamers who have Stockholm Syndrome (Crawford Syndrome?) and it makes a little bit of sense why it's so hard to get over the hump and get them to play other games.
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And that's why I'm trying to pull more D&D players into a d100 orbit. So far, one of the players I'm trying to lure to the Dark Side* is playing in WFRP4e, my Destined game, and has tried Art of Wuxia, so it seems she's mostly playing d100 now...:devil:


I'm hoping to get a D&D5e DM to switch the camps**, too, but that one's a longer Social Influence project:shade:!



*The one that offers cookies, hit locations and Combat Maneuvers:thumbsup:!
**To his credit, he'd already realized that D&D isn't good for contemporary games, or "anything except fantasy" (his words, as you can guess:tongue:). He's now looking at Destined, and stated that "this is a lot lighter" after seeing the page count and comparing with the 3-book core set of 5e.

Acmegamer said:
I don't know, I feel that the core of DnD 5e is pretty simple and rules light.
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...you and I have a very different ideas of "rules light", then:shock:!

Acmegamer said:
I kinda feel that folks expect to master things much too quickly with little to no effort these days.
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That simply doesn't apply to me, though.

Acmegamer said:
Also, the price for the Player's Handbook, Monster Manual and DMG, for the price are pretty reasonable, when taken into account inflation and the price of other hobby items. Heck for the matter the trio of books for the AD&D 1st edition when you take into account inflation add up to around the same cost as these three core DnD 5e books.
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Maybe, if you're a player...

If you're a GM, though? You need 3 books, vs 1 for most systems.
$90.95 for the 3-books set off Amazon, vs 39.99 EUR (which comes with a PDF, unlike the D&D offer - maybe we should add the price of the Beyond subscription to that?)

Either way, in what world is that a "pretty reasonable" comparison?

And that's vs a system on the more expensive side, with a roughly similar amount of rules...I could have compared it to some that are actually "rules-light"!

Acmegamer said:
Edit: I mean, I'm kinda annoyed because I don't want to defend WotC or DnD since I'm over all not a big fan of either company or mechanics. But the facts are the facts.
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Defending or not WotC and DnD is on you, but the facts don't back up this defense. The average gamer's wallet would be better-off buying only one

sharps54 said:
(sarcasm) Because TSR invented adventure modules and other companies like Chaosium would never expect players to buy such things. (saracasm)
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Yeah, I'm not comparing modules, just the books you need for the same role on the table.


Baulderstone said:
I've introduced a lot of people to RPGs over the years, and D&D is hard to teach because it simulates D&D, which is neither reality nor even how most fantasy fiction works. You need to understand the mechanical conventions just to operate in the world.

I've had a lot more luck getting people in the door with games like Call of Cthulhu, where players can just act intuitively.
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Also, this. So much this:gunslinger:!

Like, "I've had better results using Blade of the Iron Throne, ORE and GURPS as intro games" should say enough about what I believe to be better for retaining players, right:grin:?
 
TristramEvans said:
And, like Andre Linoge there, I got what I wanted from them and I went away..
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“Born in lust, turn to dust. Born in sin, come on in.”

I am a 4e stalwart, and stopped purchasing WotC products with the death of that edition. I like that tons of people find 5e to be to their taste, and brings more people into the hobby. But, for myself, the latest edition was not at all what I wanted. I saw no reason to buy any of the materials.

That would mean it has been at least from 2012, when the last book for 4e was released, but more likely earlier, as I didn’t but a lot of the books near the end.

I think the single exception is when I picked up a copy of the BECMI Rules Cyclopedia. They had a copy that was a much better scan, on DriveThru. I’m not into the OSR, but have a soft spot for BECMI.
 
Zeroth_Law said:
There are a lot of weird interactions in 5e that make mastering it really quite an undertaking. ... So when people finally feel competent playing 5e, they have kind of convinced themselves that all RPGs must be as obtuse and weirdly written as this
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Yeah, I think this has quite the impact. People who have only played D&D expect learning another system to be a serious undertaking.
 
Dr Jack said:
Yeah, I think this has quite the impact. People who have only played D&D expect learning another system to be a serious undertaking.
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FWIW, I totally agree. The D&D DM I'm trying to convert has expressed more or less that same sentiment...:thumbsup:


But then his campaign idea includes hunting dinosaurs on an island. You get nothing for guessing which campaign I pitched to him:tongue:!
 
AsenRG said:
And that's why I'm trying to pull more D&D players into a d100 orbit. So far, one of the players I'm trying to lure to the Dark Side* is playing in WFRP4e, my Destined game, and has tried Art of Wuxia, so it seems she's mostly playing d100 now...:devil:


I'm hoping to get a D&D5e DM to switch the camps**, too, but that one's a longer Social Influence project:shade:!



*The one that offers cookies, hit locations and Combat Maneuvers:thumbsup:!
**To his credit, he'd already realized that D&D isn't good for contemporary games, or "anything except fantasy" (his words, as you can guess:tongue:). He's now looking at Destined, and stated that "this is a lot lighter" after seeing the page count and comparing with the 3-book core set of 5e.


...you and I have a very different ideas of "rules light", then:shock:!


That simply doesn't apply to me, though.


Maybe, if you're a player...

If you're a GM, though? You need 3 books, vs 1 for most systems.
$90.95 for the 3-books set off Amazon, vs 39.99 EUR (which comes with a PDF, unlike the D&D offer - maybe we should add the price of the Beyond subscription to that?)

Either way, in what world is that a "pretty reasonable" comparison?

And that's vs a system on the more expensive side, with a roughly similar amount of rules...I could have compared it to some that are actually "rules-light"!


Defending or not WotC and DnD is on you, but the facts don't back up this defense. The average gamer's wallet would be better-off buying only one


Yeah, I'm not comparing modules, just the books you need for the same role on the table.



Also, this. So much this:gunslinger:!

Like, "I've had better results using Blade of the Iron Throne, ORE and GURPS as intro games" should say enough about what I believe to be better for retaining players, right:grin:?
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The trio of books in 1980 would cost about $180.00 today. I can get the trio of books for 5e plus DM screen for $94.00. On top of that you can get the SRD free. Couldn't do that back in the day. Again, stop making fucking defend those shit birds WotC.

Dungeons & Dragons Core Rulebooks Gift Set
 
Baulderstone said:
I do have to add that AD&D 1E was way more expensive than most RPGs in the '80s. Especially when you also needed a Basic Set to have any hope of understanding it.
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Not in my experience. I managed without. OTOH, back then I considered Space Opera and Chivalry & Sorcery to be fine light reading on a lunch break, so my experience might not reflect the average.
 
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Zeroth_Law said:
The idea of "roll 1d20, add a modifier, and hope it's above a target" is perfectly rules light. My complaint is that the more specific rules often are contradictory or unclear - like my example, the Devil's Sight invocation I alluded to. It says the Warlock can see normally in darkness, but not dim light. A torch emits bright light in a 20 ft. radius, meaning that a Warlock with this invocation sees normally for 20 ft., then is at Disadvantage for 20 ft. of dim light, and then can see perfectly again for 80 ft. beyond that. It's a million little things like this which make the system so obtuse.
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If it said that, it would be fiddly, but clear, but it doesn't. All the PHB says is "You can see normally in darkness, both magical and nonmagical, to a distance Df120 feet.", and therein lies the problem - you have to know the system well enough to figure out that the outcome is that Warlocks using Devel's Sight can't see in dim light any better than anyone else.

Zeroth_Law said:
Sure, but I don't really think that Hasbro of all companies needs to charge $50 for a book. I can buy a cookbook of about the same print quality, length, and so on for half the price, or less. The reality is that D&D® is a "lifestyle" brand and they know that. And the fact that they have no PDFs, instead forcing you into using Beyond? Atrocious.
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That last is actually the primary reason I didn't buy more 5e product. I'm moving away from physical books in most cases, so I'm not buying a bunch of dead-tree versions of a game I don't play and don't think is particularly special. I'm glad I didn't go down the 5e path, and end up relying on Beyond, because it will become unavailable at some point (well the 5e version). Of this I'm certain, given that they turned off the 4e support.
 
Acmegamer said:
The trio of books in 1980 would cost about $180.00 today. I can get the trio of books for 5e plus DM screen for $94.00. On top of that you can get the SRD free. Couldn't do that back in the day. Again, stop making fucking defend those shit birds WotC.

Dungeons & Dragons Core Rulebooks Gift Set
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Dude, you wrote "and the price of other hobby items". I bolded it for a reason in my previous reply, as this is what I'm answering to!

What you are comparing it is the D&D books you bought in the 70ies (or 80ies?) adjusted for inflation, AFAICT.

I'm comparing it to the price of other hobby items that are doing the same job, i.e. letting you run a session with their rule system.

Unless you're planning to claim that only other D&D books count, forgive me for thinking that this is moving goalposts from your part:thumbsdown:!

Also, if you don't want to defend WotC...well, don't? Nobody is making you do anything, the voice in your head telling you to not back down from an argument is just an illusion...:grin:
 
Dr Jack said:
Yeah, I think this has quite the impact. People who have only played D&D expect learning another system to be a serious undertaking.
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I also think that unlike previous D&D players, a lot of 5e people have that as their only real hobby gaming activity (so less boardgames, wargames, even CCGs). That means learning new rulebooks is less normalised for them.
 
A Fiery Flying Roll said:
I also think that unlike previous D&D players, a lot of 5e people have that as their only real hobby gaming activity (so less boardgames, wargames, even CCGs). That means learning new rulebooks is less normalised for them.
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This is why I am sure 6e will be a commercial success - many people consider their hobby to be D&D rather than RPGs. WotC are probably nowhere near the limit of these people's patience over quality and cost.

I see this with players of Games Workshop games. I have (within the past week) listened to them bitching and moaning about GW's commercial practices and quality issues, and then kind of politely ignore suggestions that other games exist that might be worth playing, like you might treat an eccentric uncle who thinks the moon landings were faked or something. A few will consider 3d printed models, but most of them are gaslit into thinking that is somehow unethical. These are otherwise smart, rational people, mostly holding down professional jobs. Power of branding.
 
SoManyRats said:
I also could not resist a physical Deck of Many Things. I'm anti-enthusiastic about WoTC and where D&D5+ is going, but it's a Deck of Many Things! I'll just have to adapt it to a system I'll use.
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I still have my physical deck from a Dragon magazine that I've had since 1989.
 
Baulderstone said:
I suspect that might actually have good art, unlike the new one.
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Nothing real fancy but not too bad. It was in issue #148. I just checked my archive copy from the CD. The article is there but the card images from the insert are not. Only available in the physical copy.
 
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Exploderwizard said:
Nothing real fancy but not too bad. It was in issue #148. I just checked my archive copy from the CD. The article is there but the card images from the insert are not. Only available in the physical copy.
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The Archive didn't include most of the inserts done in the magazine, it seemed. In this case, I suspect it was because they couldn't find an intact original to scan, based on these comments from the editorial in DRAGON #174 (only two years after the initial release):

"DRAGON issue #148 (August 1989):This
was the issue with the cut-out deck of
many things for the AD&D game (artwork
by George Barr), which has apparently put
it in hot demand. The TSR Mail Order
Hobby Shop is currently sold out of this
issue. We can't reproduce the cards as
nicely as before because the original artwork
was sold to various buyers, and all
transparencies of the art have been destroyed.
We could find none of this issue
to sell at our GEN CON game fair booth
this year. "
 
A Fiery Flying Roll said:
I also think that unlike previous D&D players, a lot of 5e people have that as their only real hobby gaming activity (so less boardgames, wargames, even CCGs). That means learning new rulebooks is less normalised for them.
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I second this. They just want to play 5e. We see this all the time at my local club. If nobody wants to run 5e in the slot then they just don't attend until 5e is running again. But, we used to get that in the 3.5 days as well. Its a shame as I think a lot of them would enjoy the other games. They are just not interested.

There is also this societal trend away from learning from books to learning from Youtube videos. If thats your primary method for learning then I can understand why you would be reluctant to learn anything else. Its a very time-heavy way to go about it. Youtube videos aren't known for their brevity. 5 mins of useful information inside 30 mins of total waffle. (I had this at work with a team mate... he went off looking for youtube videos on how to configure the app even after I sent him the link to the webpage that would have told him how to do it.) Some people just don't want to read anything.
 
Darrin Kelley said:
I sent for The Book Of Many Things tonight. It is the last book with new character and monster info before D&D 2024 is released. Which pretty much ends my dealings with new WotC product. The last hurrah for me.
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I think the last WotC* book I bought was the Monster Manual, the only 5e books I own are the core 3 and Jon Hodgson’s very excellent Beowulf (which I intend to convert to Mythras).

*unintentional lie, I am picking up the BECMI books available as PoD. Nostalgia buy and the only D&D I’ll run in the future if my group insists on that game line.
 
Baulderstone said:
I've introduced a lot of people to RPGs over the years, and D&D is hard to teach because it simulates D&D, which is neither reality nor even how most fantasy fiction works. You need to understand the mechanical conventions just to operate in the world.

I've had a lot more luck getting people in the door with games like Call of Cthulhu, where players can just act intuitively.
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Yep. The fact D&D is seen and, most of the time, used as the gateway game is in my opinion why the RPG hobby isn't as popular as it could be. Its a crap game to try and land with the average, even just slightly imaginative, person.
 
Self Saboteur said:
Does buying up the new HeroQuest count as WOTC? If so then they still got me hook, line and sinker unfortunately.:worried:
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Not directly. HeroQuest is made by Avalon Hill, which is another henchman of Hasbro, like WotC. So you're just supporting the main villain. But you're forgiven, because HeroQuest is a great game.
 
MoonHunter said:
several of you express a "dislike" of the D&D Brand no matter who owns it.

see, my hate for D&D runs honest. I have disliked it since it was TSR with it's high priced books and many books required to play. (There were rumors of distributors and shops not getting products (or products in a timely) if they carried other things.) Then the attitude of the company (and many players) of this being "The Only Game". Having always been an "other gamer", I have felt it. so I will collect them, but always after market.
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You hated uphill both ways? In the snow?
 
Baulderstone said:
I do have to add that AD&D 1E was way more expensive than most RPGs in the '80s. Especially when you also needed a Basic Set to have any hope of understanding it.
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???? I played with SCORES of AD&D players who did have the basic set and started with AD&D. I learned AD&D before I laid eyes on a basic set
 
Zeroth_Law said:
The idea of "roll 1d20, add a modifier, and hope it's above a target" is perfectly rules light. My complaint is that the more specific rules often are contradictory or unclear - like my example, the Devil's Sight invocation I alluded to. It says the Warlock can see normally in darkness, but not dim light. A torch emits bright light in a 20 ft. radius, meaning that a Warlock with this invocation sees normally for 20 ft., then is at Disadvantage for 20 ft. of dim light, and then can see perfectly again for 80 ft. beyond that. It's a million little things like this which make the system so obtuse.


Sure, but I don't really think that Hasbro of all companies needs to charge $50 for a book. I can buy a cookbook of about the same print quality, length, and so on for half the price, or less. The reality is that D&D® is a "lifestyle" brand and they know that. And the fact that they have no PDFs, instead forcing you into using Beyond? Atrocious.
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I've run 2 comic & game stores in KY since 1999 and the reality is that Hasbro does have to charge those prices because they are so bad at what they do. They constantly alternate between brining all processes in-house and then decide to outsource those same processes which means they have constant brain drain and wasted resources. As I understand it WotC is the only division turning a profit and they still decimated the DnD team because many on it defended the OGL. By 2025, if Hasbro still exists as is, they will probably have licensed out most of their toy lines to other toy stores and will rely on whatever crazy idea Mark Rosewater & Jeremy Crawford come up with to keep their jobs. Both have been with WotC for years and years and seem to be as survivable as cockroaches.
 
Triumvir said:
This is why I am sure 6e will be a commercial success - many people consider their hobby to be D&D rather than RPGs. WotC are probably nowhere near the limit of these people's patience over quality and cost.

I see this with players of Games Workshop games. I have (within the past week) listened to them bitching and moaning about GW's commercial practices and quality issues, and then kind of politely ignore suggestions that other games exist that might be worth playing, like you might treat an eccentric uncle who thinks the moon landings were faked or something. A few will consider 3d printed models, but most of them are gaslit into thinking that is somehow unethical. These are otherwise smart, rational people, mostly holding down professional jobs. Power of branding.
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I'm not sure if it will be a big enough success though. Hasbro, like so many corporations, aren't happy with profits they want Profits with Huge growth every quarter. 5E's real success was Critical Role choosing it and then exploding in popularity. 4E "failed" because it fucked over the OGL and 3rd party publishers and wasn't as big as Magic, but it still sold. Back in November the new lady in charge of WotC talked about 20% of the DnD audience (DMs) buy 80% of the sales and they want to "fix" that AND be a lifestyle brand. WotC is in such disarray at the moment we don't even know when in 2024 the books will drop. In the 3rd quarter last year, Hasbro's president who used to be in charge of WotC wanted to double profits by 2025 which hasn't 't worked out so well so far.

Thanfully, 5E is "complete", the OSR has kept older stuff alive, & WotC managed to reinvigorate Paizo and created more competition with Kobold Press & Matt Collville's game.
 
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