Irrational Hatreds in RPGs

[TristramEvans]

The intra-party dynamics.

From straight PvP to trust & betrayal to friendship & camaraderie to "I hate you but I love you" antics, I think the really good PbtA bring forth different party dynamics in cool ways. The more "trad" ones (like Dungeon World) tend to water-down this feature, or miss it altogether.

These are game rules? Are you referencing some sort of social mechanics the game uses?

 

[spittingimage]

But people still try to stick them round pegs in square holes!

Most of the time that doesn't work, but every so often the stars align just right and something brilliant results.

 

[CRKrueger]

see now I want to make that whole calendar...

and then mail it to the one person I think would appreciate it the most.

Jessica Price.

I literally LOL’d. Thank god I’m not at work right now.

 

[CRKrueger]

These are game rules? Are you referencing some sort of social mechanics the game uses?

Yes he is, like the Sex Moves in Apocalypse World.

 

[Tulpa Girl]

View attachment 15560​

*fans herself in Southern*

 

[Ladybird]

I've developed an irrational hatred of 'fronts'.

Everytime people tell me that Dungeon World is innovative in it's use of 'fronts' I want to scream.

Some of us have been doing it for more than 20 years - and we didn't make a fancy name for it because we thought it was a friggin obvious thing to do.

There's nothing innovative in Dungeon World.

That's the point.

 

[Silverlion]

So, it's projected to arrive before Far West?

Ouch, OUCH. Man the burn! I at least playtested a version of the system! Mind you-I went way narrative (you bid in poker chips for how much impact you had on the action in a turn) and I've stepped back from that since I don't like high roller getting all the good parts of the situation, though it was meant that everyone that bid into the pot got their declared action off if they went in, but ALSO extra (GM's bid) in good stuff. If they failed the Gm grew a bigger back stock of chips and could wager more drastic bad stuff. Eh, it's not making me happy design-wise. Too fiddly, TOO narrative. *Shrugs* though the players loved it, and they've little interest in a lot of game design beyond, "did we have fun."

 

[Ladybird]

These are game rules? Are you referencing some sort of social mechanics the game uses?

Many of them include mechanics for helping / hindering your party members. There's also sometimes a score to track your recent interactions with them, positive or negative, which can make help / hinder easier or harder and typically wraps over to give you XP.

 

[Villein]

I've developed an irrational hatred of 'fronts'.

Everytime people tell me that Dungeon World is innovative in it's use of 'fronts' I want to scream.

Some of us have been doing it for more than 20 years - and we didn't make a fancy name for it because we thought it was a friggin obvious thing to do.

I read a wiki guide on Dungeon World and fronts, and I am very confused. It feels like something I've done by default as well, and some of these choices seem completely arbitrary. Why 1-3 of these things, specifically?

 

[Chris Brady]

I'm trying to think of any others. I mean some irritations. Like adversarial DMing, like they put forth in CP2020, and Amber (which I still contend is not a game.) but I don't like HATE them as much as I hate roll under.

 

[Ladybird]

I read a wiki guide on Dungeon World and fronts, and I am very confused. It feels like something I've done by default as well, and some of these choices seem completely arbitrary. Why 1-3 of these things, specifically?

Because it's a number that's enough to be interesting, but also few enough they're still easy to manage and keep distinct, both for you and your players.

 

[Magister]

I also hate that their starship runs off one centralised computer and that they test upgrades by installing them on the equipment they need to live while hurtling through space at ludicrous speed!

Their duotronic computers (one per starship) have rendered test systems obsolete. It's only going to kill unnamed extras anyway, and nobody ever got court-martialed for excessive security guard deaths.

 

[Lessa]

There are now dozens of pbta games and I don't want to go through them all. Which ones do you think do this well?

Masks: a New Generation and Undying do this really well, while having pretty popular themes (supers and vampires respectively), so I recommend these.

 

[Black Vulmea]

I also hate that their starship runs off one centralised computer . . .

Oh lawds, I remember this discussion on CotI when I suggested that passengers on a free trader didn't have access to the ship's Library program from their staterooms: yes, of course you can access the Encyclopedia Imperium for Vargr mating rituals on the same computer I use while calculating our transition to jump space and guiding anti-missile fire, pilgrim . . .

 

[TJS]

I read a wiki guide on Dungeon World and fronts, and I am very confused. It feels like something I've done by default as well, and some of these choices seem completely arbitrary. Why 1-3 of these things, specifically?

Clocks from Blades in the Dark are similar.

Really? People's minds are blown by a basic countdown?

 

[TristramEvans]

Hmm, so, I haven't really had a (serious) answer for this thread...

truth is, I don't really "hate" much to do with RPGs, irrationally or otherwise. There's stuff I don't like for myself, but that doesn't really translate into an emotional reaction.

But that may be me taking it more seriously than needs be.

So here's a list of personal pet peeves

Floating target numbers (especially when the game just labels them with a bunch of synonyms of "Difficult")
Most social combat mechanics
NPCs/Monsters statted differently than the PCs
No index
Rules sections integrated with game fluff/fiction
"Funny" names for standard RPG terms
Social Contracts as an implicit construction as part of the game
Comic Sans or Papyrus font
Poser art
Classes as professions based on videogame word-salads
Levels
Rules the GM is expected to follow
Elves artificially separated from Faeries
Folklore creatures re-interpreted as Star Trek aliens
Related: Creatures from folklore/mythology "in name only"
D20 rolls (I much prefer the sweet curve of 3d6)
The number 4. Also the number 14
New editions of games that aren't backwards compatible/completely different systems
Katanas as magic super-swords
"dice" used in the singular
Nonsensical restrictions in the name of "Game Balance"
Black noses on rats/ratmen

 

[Baeraad]

@ TristramEvans, for what you have subjected me to, I swear vengeance upon you and all your line unto the seventh generation. I shall cover the Earth in darkness and blood before this outrage is repaid. Oh yes. Oh yes.

But first, I need to go and boil my eyeballs.

 

[TristramEvans]

@ TristramEvans, for what you have subjected me to, I swear vengeance upon you and all your line unto the seventh generation. I shall cover the Earth in darkness and blood before this outrage is repaid. Oh yes. Oh yes.

But first, I need to go and boil my eyeballs.

Just wait for the sequel...

Two Mentzers, One Cup

 

[EmperorNorton]

TristramEvans Several of your pet peeves hit on one of the other things I can't stand in RPGs, to the point I have a hard time reading any game that has it, even if everything I've heard about it is good: Terrible formating.

So many games really really really need to have someone learn the basics of document design. IT ISN'T HARD TO MAKE A GAME LOOK INOFFENSIVE ON THE PAPER. Like, dude, just basic shit and it can look average and readable.

But so many times bad fonts, terrible spacing, awful headers/sidebars, miserable layout, etc etc etc.

 

[Mankcam]

Two Mentzers, One Cup

OMG you went with that reference?!!!
Heh heh
-1D20 SAN Pts !!!

 

[Numidius]

Clocks from Blades in the Dark are similar.

Really? People's minds are blown by a basic countdown?

I Can't speak for the blown minds, but Fronts and Countdown clocks to midnight they both appeared in Apocalypse World first, from which DW is directly derived, and BitD also but later and less so.

 

[Nobby-W]

I'm in IT.

I also hate that their starship runs off one centralised computer and that they test upgrades by installing them on the equipment they need to live while hurtling through space at ludicrous speed!

Everybody has a test environment. Some folks are lucky enough to have a separate one for production ...

 

[Nobby-W]

I think we need both queasy and dad-joke emojis.

 

[Nobby-W]

I Can't speak for the blown minds, but Fronts and Countdown clocks to midnight they both appeared in Apocalypse World first, from which DW is directly derived, and BitD also but later and less so.

I like clocks. They're a great alternative to hinging everything on a single roll (which will eventually fail if you make your players roll enough times). Also, they're a nice way to drive some tension without needing an immediate catastrophe - you can spin out a given episode longer without it getting boring.

I think they're a good enough mechanic that I would probably use them with other systems.

 

[Necrozius]

Yeah clocks and fronts are just a shorthand tool to help GMs manage the many moving parts of campaigns. I used to find such tasks overwhelming.

They may be seen as “training wheels” or even vestigial to you veterans, but they’re great for teaching the concepts to newer gamers. Which is a good thing, isn’t it?

FYI, replies using terms like “babies” or “pussies” will instantly put you on my ignore list, just in case you ever wonder why I no longer reply to you anymore. That shit is weak.

 

[Nobby-W]

TristramEvans Several of your pet peeves hit on one of the other things I can't stand in RPGs, to the point I have a hard time reading any game that has it, even if everything I've heard about it is good: Terrible formating.

So many games really really really need to have someone learn the basics of document design. IT ISN'T HARD TO MAKE A GAME LOOK INOFFENSIVE ON THE PAPER. Like, dude, just basic shit and it can look average and readable.

But so many times bad fonts, terrible spacing, awful headers/sidebars, miserable layout, etc etc etc.

Working in I.T. I've seen things you wouldn't believe. So many terrible documents. Actually you probably would believe them.

Even M.S. Word comes with decent templates now.
____________________
One of the things I really like about TeX is that out-of-the-box it does layout for book-type documents better than most people can. It takes a pretty dedicated effort to make a TeX document look bad. Really all you need to do is sometimes hit it over the head and insist that it places an illustration here dammnit!. You may need third party packages to do stuff like include illustrations with bleed but it can be done.
It's not all that hard to learn (literally took me a couple of two-hour labs at university), although unfortunately it does require a fair degree of technical nouse to modify document styles.

 

[Baeraad]

Yeah clocks and fronts are just a shorthand tool to help GMs manage the many moving parts of campaigns. I used to find such tasks overwhelming.

They may be seen as “training wheels” or even vestigial to you veterans, but they’re great for teaching the concepts to newer gamers. Which is a good thing, isn’t it?

I think that is the case for a lot of things that PbtA (and games of the last decade in general) does. It formulises a lot of things that old-timers have long since worked out on their own and have started to see as self-evident, but which were not previously part of the explicit instructions for GMing. This tends to make old-timers bristle, because they feel like they're being talked down to. And probably also to some extent because they had to learn how to GM the hard way, sp what's wrong with these lazy, entitled youths of today that they want one-size-fits-all rules, back in our day we had have a hundred miserable play experiences to learn what not to do before we could have actually good ones, and that built us character damn it!!

I snark, but I do feel a little of that myself. I don't want to believe that all the time I spent learning how to GM properly can be replaced by a few hard-and-fast bulletpoints. And to some extent, it can't be - I do think that I can GM better with my hard-earned experience than someone can who's working off a checklist without understanding the reasons behind it. But the checklist-reader can pick up a book today and run a game tomorrow, whereas it took over twenty years for me to reach the point where I am now.

Bottom line, the next generation will have an easier time of it because of what the previous generation went through and learned and passed on. That's how it should be.

 

[Endless Flight]

I don’t see what the problem is. If you make a GM’s life easier, more people will want to GM.

 

[Nobby-W]

I don’t see what the problem is. If you make a GMs life easier, more people will want to GM.

Grumble grumble ... young whippersnappers ... back in my day ... uphill both ways ... get off my lawn!

 

[Faylar]

Grumble grumble ... young whippersnappers ... back in my day ... uphill both ways ... get off my lawn!

Ok boomer. :p

 

[Endless Flight]

Grumble grumble ... young whippersnappers ... back in my day ... uphill both ways ... get off my lawn!

Five miles to school, yadda, yadda...

 

[Tulpa Girl]

TristramEvans Several of your pet peeves hit on one of the other things I can't stand in RPGs, to the point I have a hard time reading any game that has it, even if everything I've heard about it is good: Terrible formating.

So many games really really really need to have someone learn the basics of document design. IT ISN'T HARD TO MAKE A GAME LOOK INOFFENSIVE ON THE PAPER. Like, dude, just basic shit and it can look average and readable.

But so many times bad fonts, terrible spacing, awful headers/sidebars, miserable layout, etc etc etc.

On a related peeve, any form of artsy layout, like gray text against a black background, that reduces legibility.

Black text on white paper. It works.

 

[Stan]

Along those lines, I disdain overly fancy dice. When there are swirls and junk around the numbers, it's like they are trying to demonstrate lateral inhibition to make the numbers hard to read quickly. Dice should be instantly readable from 5' away.

In my elderly laziness, I've come to be leery of overly long game books. The authors ramble on with poor organization and unclear thought processes. Sometimes there is a decent game hidden in the crap but you can't find it until someone publishes a 2 page cheat sheet on the rules. Why weren't the rules those 2 pages and a bit more explanation in the first place?

 

[The Mad Hatter]

TristramEvans Several of your pet peeves hit on one of the other things I can't stand in RPGs, to the point I have a hard time reading any game that has it, even if everything I've heard about it is good: Terrible formating.

So many games really really really need to have someone learn the basics of document design. IT ISN'T HARD TO MAKE A GAME LOOK INOFFENSIVE ON THE PAPER. Like, dude, just basic shit and it can look average and readable.

But so many times bad fonts, terrible spacing, awful headers/sidebars, miserable layout, etc etc etc.

Do you have some links to good places on the internet, or some books, where one can read about these things.

Not that I'm in the publishing business, but I'm actually curious to learn how to do those things.

 

[Nobby-W]

Along those lines, I disdain overly fancy dice. When there are swirls and junk around the numbers, it's like they are trying to demonstrate lateral inhibition to make the numbers hard to read quickly. Dice should be instantly readable from 5' away.

In my elderly laziness, I've come to be leery of overly long game books. The authors ramble on with poor organization and unclear thought processes. Sometimes there is a decent game hidden in the crap but you can't find it until someone publishes a 2 page cheat sheet on the rules. Why weren't the rules those 2 pages and a bit more explanation in the first place?

There's something to be said for the days of 48 page saddle stitched splat books - they forced a degree of economy as the medium could only handle so much text without needing a different - and appreciably more expensive - binding process.

There's definitely a knack to communicating something complex in a concise way.
I think the reason most developers hate specs is that few people actually have the skills to write them well.

 

[Nobby-W]

Do you have some links to good places on the internet, or some books, where one can read about these things.

Not that I'm in the publishing business, but I'm actually curious to learn how to do those things.

I learned from a book called Phototypography by Allan Haley, but it's about 40 years old now and really aimed at folks using pre-DTP photosetting technology. Microsoft Press published a good book on the subject about 1990 called Desktop Publishing By Design, but I think it's out of print now. You may be able to pick it up off Ebay. If you're publishing to print it will still be relevant, but it definitely predates e-book and web tech.

Not sure what's about these days, but I imagine a little google-fu should turn something up.

As an aside, at least a couple of dozen of the fonts that come out-of-the-box with Windows are good for setting a large text document in, plus a fairly wide variety of decorative display typefaces. Don't get too hung up about fonts unless you know exactly why you need something different.

Calibri Baskerville (transitional) Book Antiqua (Palatino knockoff) Bookman (1920s look and feel) Californian FB Calisto Cambria Centaur Candara Century (19th century look)

Corbel Franklin Gothic Garamond Georgia Euphemia Goudy Old Style Gill Sans Kartika Lucida Bright Lucida Sans

Malgun Gothic Palatino Linotype Perpetua Segoe UI Tahoma Times New Roman Trebuchet Verdana . .

Also, although there are decorative type styles available, do be careful with them.



.....

 

[CRKrueger]

Just wait for the sequel...

Two Mentzers, One Cup

Don’t forget:
TubMentzer
Mentzerse

 

[3rik]

"dice" used in the singular

This.

 

[CRKrueger]

Fronts, clocks, etc... are OK for helping GM’s keep track of things.

The problem with them is that they are an overly simplistic method of gauging Consequences to PC’s actions. Formalizing into mechanics reactions to PCs responses may ensure a certain level of setting engagement, but it sacrifices the thing that a new GM needs to use most...judgement.

You never actually learn to ride the bike until the training wheels come off.

Of course there’s the other issue, namely that of player knowledge of and interaction with, the concept and actual mechanics of the Clocks, but that’s a separate issue, and for many a feature.

 

[Dumarest]

Along those lines, I disdain overly fancy dice. When there are swirls and junk around the numbers, it's like they are trying to demonstrate lateral inhibition to make the numbers hard to read quickly. Dice should be instantly readable from 5' away.

In my elderly laziness, I've come to be leery of overly long game books. The authors ramble on with poor organization and unclear thought processes. Sometimes there is a decent game hidden in the crap but you can't find it until someone publishes a 2 page cheat sheet on the rules. Why weren't the rules those 2 pages and a bit more explanation in the first place?

I'm fairly certain more than a few RPGs are meant "for display only" nowadays. Glossy covers, hundreds of pages with fancy watermarks, full-color interiors, rules scattered throughout with madcap abandon. Not really meant to be played so much as admired. They're more like a concept car than a pickup truck you'd actually use to "git 'er done."