Mod+ Mythic Polynesia

[CRKrueger]

There's a difference between a culture that doesn't exist anymore and a living culture, certainly. In that, for the former a researcher is reliant on historical sources and archeosociological findings, and with the latter there are first hand sources that a person has easy access to. That's kind of one of the main criticisms of the book, that it relies n a sparse number of outdated third party sources for no real reason.

It's not much different than when White Wolf published that sourcebook on the UK for Changeling that was written by a bunch of kids who'd never left Seattle based on a Fodor's Travel Guide and some VHS tapes of Are You Being Served?



Sauce?



If that was his plan - and there is still not a single logical reason to assume so - then it failed miserably. He has less likes than the average meme I post on Facebook.

I don’t want to get into the weeds in sociology argument, but I think the idea that modern Polynesians have a direct unbroken line to the time of contact and are essentially the same culture today where other cultures do not is tenuous.

Do some indigenous peoples have cultural memory of The Old Ways? Sure, but a lot of it is as reconstructed as Asatru.

 

[Zebraman]

Just as a reminder, one of the few sources cited in Mythic Polynesia is the Disney cartoon movie Moana, the book is called Mythic Polynesia and the cover features some warriors fighting a forest monster.

In other words in terms of real world influence there is no depiction of an actual real world culture in which to frame a debate whether the author got it right or wrong.

With regard to the example Mythic Israel having antisemitic depictions there is a quesiton of good faith on the part of the author to be depicting a fantasy world and not making a politic point. As far as I am aware no one is making an accusation that Mythic Polynesia is intentionally drawing connections between the fictional world depicted and the real world.

 

[Simlasa]

None. But this tangent is veering directly into Marxist theory, and that's dead centre of our No Politics rule, so let's drop this particular line of inquiry.

Sorry, I had no idea I was standing in Marxist territory.

 

[TristramEvans]

I don’t want to get into the weeds in sociology argument, but I think the idea that modern Polynesians have a direct unbroken line to the time of contact and are essentially the same culture today where other cultures do not is tenuous.

What is tenuous about that? There was never a point when the cultures disappeared and had to be reconstructed, at most there was just some missionary schools that abused children who didn't try to assimilate hard enough. We're not talking about modern Druids, the comparison is closer to remaining Native American tribes.

And like the Native Americans, when the culture comes into danger of extinction, it no longer evolves naturally but is stubbornly trapped in amber. So it's not like the difference between Japan 1000 years ag and Japan today, because preservation becomes the primary concern.

 

[TristramEvans]

Sorry, I had no idea I was standing in Marxist territory.

No worries, most people don't these days, because it's cloaked under a variety of other terms

 

[TristramEvans]

In other words in terms of real world influence there is no depiction of an actual real world culture in which to frame a debate whether the author got it right or wrong.

That's in direct contradiction to the rest of the Mythic Earth line.

 

[AsenRG]

1) @Seadna is the best pubber to look over that Twitter thread. The only better option would be to invite @Liam the Maori to the Pub (and if he does show up and abides by the One Rule To Bind Them All, I'd like to hear his arguments - but I refuse to answer to Twitter criticisms on a principle).
2) Raleel got schooled in Pub slang, unexpectedly. He's also following in my footsteps so much I'm starting to worry...I mean, he literally stated "the emojis help"!
3) CRKrueger is...well, Krueger as usual, even when he's right.
4) I guess a "current edition Mythic Polynesia" might not be a bad investment...though TDM might just do the smart move and keep selling the original edition as well as any new one. I've never understood why some people stop selling the old editions of their games.
5) The cultures mentioned in Mythic Constantinople haven't disappeared, either. And they have all been colonized, too, at a time close to the events in the setting book. Sorry, that argument really falls flat.
6) Maybe MP isn't as well-researched as other Mythic Earth books by TDM. That said, as basically a first RPG book for the region, we should definitely cut it a lot more slack...or maybe we should all switch to Medieval European fantasy settings from now on? Maybe with a side dash of totally fantasy natives which can be encountered during ocean trips...or would it be safer if the people living on the other side of the ocean in my setting are just the same as those where the ship sailed from?

 

[Zebraman]

That's in direct contradiction to the rest of the Mythic Earth line.

This is a direct opinion I disagree with.

I haven't technically read every Mythic line but certainly Mythic Rome and Mythic Constantinople don't depict real world cultures they depict fictional cultures. The aesthetic and inspirational connection to real world cultures is a matter of debate.

Or to put it another way I am fascinated to know the influence that minotaurs and literal magic had on Byzantine culture in the 15th century because certainly this wasn't something that I have previously read about.

In either case this is irrelevant because every book in the Mythic Earth line can be read as a separate sourcebook.

 

[TristramEvans]

The only better option would be to invite @Liam the Maori to the Pub

I wouldn't recommend this. He fits in with the culture at TBP too well, if you catch my drift.

5) The cultures mentioned in Mythic Constantinople haven't disappeared, either.

Uh...no. Istanbul is not composed of the same cultures these days as of the Ottoman Empire and the Turks, lol. C'mon..

6) Maybe MP isn't as well-researched as other Mythic Earth books by TDM. That said, as basically a first RPG book for the region, we should definitely cut it a lot more slack...or maybe we should all switch to Medieval European settings?

Neither. There's nothing wrong with holding it to a standard.

 

[Gringnr]

Me, trying to figure out how much more shit I can get away with around here by appealing to Tristram's academic vanity...



(I kid, I kid...)

 

[Zebraman]

What debate is that? If you have a critique, or know of any, regarding the scholarship on either of those books you can put it forth. But simply saying "it's a matter of debate" doesn't make it so.

Just for clarification so I can respond are you saying actual giants, minotaurs, monsters magic etc literally existed in ancient Rome and/or Constantinople?

 

[TristramEvans]

Just for clarification so I can respond are you saying actual giants, minotaurs, monsters magic etc literally existed in ancient Rome and/or Constantinople?

K, so, you're not being serious.

 

[Bunch]

I'm not familiar with the Mythic line. Do they attempt to reflect the world as it was believed to exist? In that case including the monsters as real seems fine.
There's always some level of realism as a goal in fantasy world's if only so players can attempt to function reasonably in them. Different product attempt different levels of accuracy/realism. Just because dragons and magic exists doesn't mean it's anything goes. If I'm selling Cthulhu Invictus I'm selling a certain accuracy about Roman life with a layer of Cthulhu on top. If I'm selling D&D 5e I'm selling a certain level of fantasy with a much wider(or smaller as the cae maybe) range of realism.

 

[AsenRG]

I wouldn't recommend this. He fits in with the culture at TBP too well, if you catch my drift.

Uh...no. Istanbul is not composed of the same cultures these days as of the Ottoman Empire and the Turks, lol. C'mon..

View attachment 52813

Istanbul, probably not. The population there has shifted a lot.
Athens or Sofia, on the other hand...well, let's just say that you claiming that it's a different culture would be deeply political and offensive, in the same breath.
Of course, the cultures have evolved...but probably less than a lot of you would assume, and not without external pressures.

Neither. There's nothing wrong with holding it to a standard.

Sure, but my claim is that the standard should be a lot lower for such cases. How many Roman RPGs have there been? How many RPGs covering parts of Britain...OK, that's even laughable to ask.
And how good were the first ones of each of those?
So if you're going to compare it, it should be compared to Mythic Babylon, IMO...which is a great book, make no mistake. But even if it's not up there, at least it's a start and gets some info on the region to gamers. Which is IMO better than nothing.

 

[CRKrueger]

Well Mythic Rome and Constantinople have two parts to them really, the fantasy part and the historical part. Just because Mythic Rome has curses and Alchemy doesn’t mean we should excuse Pete for getting a “Life as a Roman” section wildly inaccurate.

It’s always easier to get closer to the historical source when you have an actual written language and thousands of original documents and hundreds of thousands of copies of those documents. When the truth is relying on oral history from 500 years ago spread over 500 languages, it gets a lot harder to write or critique with authority.

 

[TristramEvans]

Istanbul, probably not. The population there has shifted a lot.
Athens or Sofia, on the other hand...well, let's just say that you claiming that it's a different culture would be deeply political and offensive, in the same breath.

I didn't know the people of Athens lived under that delusion. I saw more togas at University in Pennsylvania than I did visiting the ruins of the Acropolis.

Don;t know much about Bulgaria, besides the fact that they have cheap real estate...

Sure, but my claim is that the standard should be a lot lower for such cases.

allright, well I already waxed on about my personal standards earlier in the thread

 

[TristramEvans]

I'm not familiar with the Mythic line. Do they attempt to reflect the world as it was believed to exist? In that case including the monsters as real seems fine.

That's essentially it. It's the historical cultures with the caveat that those cultures's mythology/folklore was real.

 

[Zebraman]

K, so, you're not being serious.

Come on now; my entire point is we are not talking about a history book but a roleplay book set in an explcitly mythic world. If the argument is the scholarship elevates the book to the realm of an academic text then it is a fair question to ask where the Mythic elements fit into that scholarship.

So far I haven't see any coherent argument as to how the Mythic world described in the roleplay book has an influence on the real world.

 

[The Mad Hatter]

I'm not familiar with the Mythic line. Do they attempt to reflect the world as it was believed to exist? In that case including the monsters as real seems fine.
There's always some level of realism as a goal in fantasy world's if only so players can attempt to function reasonably in them. Different product attempt different levels of accuracy/realism. Just because dragons and magic exists doesn't mean it's anything goes. If I'm selling Cthulhu Invictus I'm selling a certain accuracy about Roman life with a layer of Cthulhu on top. If I'm selling D&D 5e I'm selling a certain level of fantasy with a much wider(or smaller as the cae maybe) range of realism.

I only have Mythic Rome. It has a very indepth view of life as a roman citizen. It also has monsters and other stuff that's mythical. But here is the text from the back of the book:

"Welcome to the birth of the Roman Republic, and follow it through to its murderous end, a tumultuous ride through some of its most turbulent history.

Mythic Rome encapsulates the dark and gritty past, allowing players to take part in the founding of Rome: as a bandit on the Tiber; to overthrow the tyrannical 7 Kings; conquer the rival Etruscan city states; watch the city be sacked by Gauls; battle Hannibal during the Punic Wars; take part in the malevolent Bacchanalian Consipracy; fight alongside Spartacus (or against him); or choose sides during the civil war between Caesar and Pompey

This invaluable book contains rules for everything from political standing to chariot racing, along with comprehensive Roman careers and guides for weapons, armour and Combat Styles of Rome’s legions and her enemies. Also included are obscure supernatural creatures and new magic systems
to reflect the way magic works from the perspective of the Romans themselves.

Continuing the quality and historical depth of The Design Mechanism’s Mythic series, Mythic Rome stands as one of the very best historical roleplaying supplements, describing in intricate detail every aspect of everyday Roman life. The book is packed with quotations from the historians and scholars of the last days of the Republic, revealing shocking details of Rome the Eternal City, a shining pinnacle of civilisation built on the grisly foundations of crime, superstition, war and treachery.."

 

[Bunch]

I only have Mythic Rome. It has a very indepth view of life as a roman citizen. It also has monsters and other stuff that's mythical. But here is the text from the back of the book:

"Welcome to the birth of the Roman Republic, and follow it through to its murderous end, a tumultuous ride through some of its most turbulent history.

Mythic Rome encapsulates the dark and gritty past, allowing players to take part in the founding of Rome: as a bandit on the Tiber; to overthrow the tyrannical 7 Kings; conquer the rival Etruscan city states; watch the city be sacked by Gauls; battle Hannibal during the Punic Wars; take part in the malevolent Bacchanalian Consipracy; fight alongside Spartacus (or against him); or choose sides during the civil war between Caesar and Pompey

This invaluable book contains rules for everything from political standing to chariot racing, along with comprehensive Roman careers and guides for weapons, armour and Combat Styles of Rome’s legions and her enemies. Also included are obscure supernatural creatures and new magic systems
to reflect the way magic works from the perspective of the Romans themselves.

Continuing the quality and historical depth of The Design Mechanism’s Mythic series, Mythic Rome stands as one of the very best historical roleplaying supplements, describing in intricate detail every aspect of everyday Roman life. The book is packed with quotations from the historians and scholars of the last days of the Republic, revealing shocking details of Rome the Eternal City, a shining pinnacle of civilisation built on the grisly foundations of crime, superstition, war and treachery.."

Anyone have the back text to Mythic P?

 

[TristramEvans]

Come on now; my entire point is we are not talking about a history book but a roleplay book set in an explcitly mythic world. If the argument is the scholarship elevates the book to the realm of an academic text then it is a fair question to ask where the Mythic elements fit into that scholarship.

No, there's no argument that it's elevated to the realm of academic text, the argument is that the line set a standard for presenting accurate information, and that's been reasonably cast into doubt regarding Mythic Polynesia. So it's the difference between watching Agora or Xena: The Warrior Priness. The latter may be fine, if that's what you want and are expecting, but if you go in with the expectation of the former, it's a disappointment*

* This analogy is exaggerated, obviously, I can't say how inaccurate MP is, and that's sort of the problem for me.

So far I haven't see any coherent argument as to how the Mythic world described in the roleplay book has an influence on the real world.

I'd point you towards post #68: https://www.rpgpub.com/threads/mythic-polynesia-round-2.8431/page-2#post-383831

 

[CRKrueger]

Anyone have the back text to Mythic P?

 

[TristramEvans]

Anyone have the back text to Mythic P?

I think it just says "Watch Disney's Moana"

 

[Séadna]

I'm not familiar with the Mythic line. Do they attempt to reflect the world as it was believed to exist?

There's sort of three layers to them.

1. Completely historic information, i.e. sections of the book could be used to run a straight historical game
2. "If that culture's myths were real", so creatures and magic from Ancient Rome, Babylon, how curses would have worked and so on. This includes not just stuff from their mythology, but also from their "science" like the Blemmyai and Skiapodes in Mythic Constantinople. Science and myth here are fairly porous, but I'm making a distinction between creatures "native" to Greek myth and ones that only appear later in ethnographic accounts by people like Herodotus.
3. Creatures from the mythology of nearby cultures, e.g. some monsters in Mythic Babylon aren't strictly Babylonian but from the Levant or the rest of the Mediterranean.

 

[Toadmaster]

This, in fact, one of the criticisms presented in the Twitter thread I encourage you to read - that the cultures are lumped together with too broad a strokes. I don’t have enough knowledge to talk about the accuracy of that.

I'm not well versed in Polynesian culture, beyond reading Call it Courage when I was in grade school and I made a model of an outrigger canoe with the assistance of my dad for the accompanying book report.

My qualifications out of the way.


Polynesia covers an area of 800,000 square miles, at least 8 major cultural groups, and 38 distinct languages. More if the book encompasses the related cultures of neighboring Melanesia and Micronesia. Modern Polynesia falls under the influence of the USA, the UK, France, New Zealand, Australia, Chile, Fiji, Somoa, Tonga, and Tuvalu.

This project like others similar to it are doomed to this kind of complaint as an all encompassing guide in what 200 pages or so is not realistic? There would be a similar issue trying to do a North American Native American game, there is going to be some homogenization of the many tribal groups out of necessity.


These smaller, lesser known subjects don't seem to have the interest to provide highly detailed game materials. The problem for me comes down to we either do without, simply ignoring them as gaming material and we get more games based on England, Ancient Greece, Europe or there has to be some acceptance that there will be a fair amount of generalization made.

The complaint seems to be primarily that the book doesn't represent any single culture, rather than that the ancient Polynesian people are being shown in a derogatory way.

I prefer to look at it as generating further interest, as reading a book about a young Polynesian boy surviving alone did for me.

 

[A Fiery Flying Roll]

Come on now; my entire point is we are not talking about a history book but a roleplay book set in an explcitly mythic world. If the argument is the scholarship elevates the book to the realm of an academic text then it is a fair question to ask where the Mythic elements fit into that scholarship.

So far I haven't see any coherent argument as to how the Mythic world described in the roleplay book has an influence on the real world.

The relevant text from Mythic Rome (I don't own Mythic Constantinople).

Since this is an historical setting, most of the information hasbeen carefully researched to be as accurate as possible, drawing on the archaeological and historical theories current at the time of publication. Many of the cultural conventions described may seem odd, or even wrong, but where space permits their accuracy has been illustrated using quotes from Roman and Greek authors contemporary to the time or within a few generations of the period. Due to
the dearth of written material surviving from earlier times, most of the information is skewed towards the lifestyle and culture at end of the Republic and, at best, are only generalisations.

Although primarily a historical guide to early Roman life, some supernatural and mythological elements are included in the Magic and Creatures chapters to provide for Games Masters desiring a mythic campaign. These aspects are more subtle than their earlier archaic Greek counterparts and demonstrate Roman superstition prevalent at the time.

The relevant takeaways in my view:

This is specifically a historical setting.

The book is mostly a "historical guide".

The mythic elements are specifically drawn from Roman superstition at the time.

That's very different than "it's a entirely madeup world with no basis in historical reality" and I think does the book a disservice.

 

[Raleel]

Mythic Polynesia is a roleplaying supplement, not a textbook. The emphasis has very much been on what creates the most interesting setting and less on historical accuracy, although the original source material has been adhered to as much as possible. The most egregious (and deliberate) inaccuracies result from combining non-contemporaneous cultures and events. No disrespect to real world cultures is intended.

the equivalent text from MP.

 

[A Fiery Flying Roll]

I am surprised that got through the editing process tbh. Previously, one thing I trusted TDM on was to actually care about history.

 

[Séadna]

This is Mythic Constantinople:

DISCLAIMER
This work is a fictional depiction of Constantinople in the fifteenth century. While best attempts have been made to present a historical setting, this book should not be considered an academic work.
There are gaps in knowledge on the specifics of life at the end of the Byzantine Empire, and in building a coherent setting the missing details have been either assumed to be the same as a previous era or else details have been invented to fill in the gaps. Accuracy has been sometimes sacrificed for playability, and the focus has very much been on what would be the most entertaining details for a roleplaying game.
Not all anachronisms, omissions, and inaccuracies are deliberate. Some are undoubtedly accidental and the author takes full responsibility for any errors.

Mythic Babylon doesn't have an equivalent section as far as I can see.

 

[Toadmaster]

I am surprised that got through the editing process tbh. Previously, one thing I trusted TDM on was to actually care about history.

What would you estimate in tonnage is the difference in historic documentation available to the authors of a Rome book vs Polynesia?

What is the difference in the market for a book on Rome vs Polynesia?


Do you think this may have some impact on decisions made?

 

[CRKrueger]

I am surprised that got through the editing process tbh. Previously, one thing I trusted TDM on was to actually care about history.

A lot of the other books provide a specific and rather narrow timeframe. This book does not. Non-contemporaneous does not mean incorrect.

 

[Raleel]

A lot of the other books provide a specific and rather narrow timeframe. This book does not. Non-contemporaneous does not mean incorrect.

That’s a pretty fair critique, and one that Liam brought up. It tries to claim the culture was essentially unchanged for hundreds of years. The rest of the mythic line are pretty focused on time periods.

 

[Voros]

People have a right to criticize a book and others have the right to listen to the criticism or not, then make up their own minds.

A system-neutral OSRish game in a similar setting that I enjoyed is A Thousand Thousand Islands series of zines, the same designer did a monster book that looks cool but I haven't checked it out yet, I think I may hold out for a hardcopy.

A Thousand Thousand Islands

A Thousand Thousand Islands is a Southeast Asian-themed fantasy visual world-building project.

athousandthousandislands.com

 

[Rob Necronomicon]

Personally, I'd be far more willing to listen to twitter arguments if they were less passive-aggressive and didn't talk down to people. I would accept a reasonable request, but never a demand (but YMMV).

I prefer a carrot as opposed to a stick...

 

[Acmegamer]

I'm dying

LOL. You are a terrible person. Carry on.

 

[carpocratian]

Honestly, speaking for myself, I know I'd be reluctant to wade into those shark-infested waters, so on that level at least I can understand the silence. I assume they will eventually say something about it, maybe waiting until the heat is off isn't that bad a choice in this day and age, rather than allowing one's words to get picked apart in bad faith. But, I dunno, I don't run a company.

From a purely business perspective, it is generally best to only engage with social media (or even the traditional kind) if doing so will help to sell more of your product or services, or avert the loss of sales from bad press. When it comes to the latter part of that statement, I think time has shown that a quick response - or even a response at all - can sometimes do more harm than good, particularly if the criticisms originated on Twitter. Even a truly heartfelt apology tends to just embolden the angriest critics on that particular forum, only exacerbating the issue. Sometimes the outrage dies down quicker if a business simply doesn't engage with the nay-sayers. In many cases, the bulk of the participants on those threads are not (and never will be) customers of the company in question. The longer the angry threads go on, the more likely that potential customers will run across them (or find them on Google later), so letting them sputter out quickly is sometimes the better choice.

 

[Zebraman]

No, there's no argument that it's elevated to the realm of academic text, the argument is that the line set a standard for presenting accurate information, and that's been reasonably cast into doubt regarding Mythic Polynesia. So it's the difference between watching Agora or Xena: The Warrior Priness. The latter may be fine, if that's what you want and are expecting, but if you go in with the expectation of the former, it's a disappointment*

* This analogy is exaggerated, obviously, I can't say how inaccurate MP is, and that's sort of the problem for me.



I'd point you towards post #68: https://www.rpgpub.com/threads/mythic-polynesia-round-2.8431/page-2#post-383831

I think there's common ground in agreeing that these books aren't academic sourcebooks and there's agreement that they include by design material which is made up.

For me the remaining point is about the historic accuracy (or otherwise) in the books and whether this matters. My question then would be are you reading these books as a replacement for reading a history book when you want to learn about Rome or Constantinople or Polynesia? Do you trust the research in an rpg sourcebook enough that it will influence your view of people or cultures in the real world?

This also speaks to Blackleafs point about saying it is all made up doing a disservice to the historical research in the books.

Saying "it is made up" does a disservice to the research if we are on the same page that these are rpg sourcebooks primarily used by GMs to create a game with a particular aesthetic and a feeling of verisimilitude. If we are talking about the historical research in the context of material for actually learning about real life Rome then no my point stands, Mythic Rome is entirely made up.

And then with regard to the link and your post, that is adjacent to but not really directly addressing my point. It is talking about doing no harm but is not presenting an argument as to how there is a through line between fictional material in an rpg source book and real world harm. (Incidentally that isn't a criticism of the post itself, I may be wrong but my reading was that you weren't trying to present that anyway).

 

[SJB]

One of the pleasures of RPG scenarios is that they can throw aside any need for historical accuracy. Get in there, enjoy the creativity. The history is just there to fulfil Wells’s dictum that, “the thing that makes such imaginations interesting is their translation into commonplace terms and a rigid exclusion of other marvels from the story.”

Anyone can call themselves an historian - there is no licensing system - it’s trickier to be a worthwhile historian. That’s perhaps the lesson of this episode. Footnotes and bibliographies rarely do the job - personally, I’d just ditch them, with the exception of Appendix N fiction lists which are so wound up with the origins of the hobby.

 

[AsenRG]

I didn't know the people of Athens lived under that delusion. I saw more togas at University in Pennsylvania than I did visiting the ruins of the Acropolis.

Clothing=/=culture. And if you insist on that line of thought, I'm pretty sure most Maori today don't wear their traditional dresses, nor do they go head-hunting, or make raids on their enemies, and so on...so the current Polynesian people are just as removed from the attributes of their culture as we are. Because you know, 21st century.

Also, it seems you ignored, deliberately or not, that cultures evolve, but it was in my post.

Don;t know much about Bulgaria, besides the fact that they have cheap real estate...

That's hilarious!

allright, well I already waxed on about my personal standards earlier in the thread

Yes, you did. That's part of the reason why I pointed out that standards when covering new ground have to be more relaxed.

 

[TristramEvans]

And then with regard to the link and your post, that is adjacent to but not really directly addressing my point. It is talking about doing no harm but is not presenting an argument as to how there is a through line between fictional material in an rpg source book and real world harm.

Well, you're correct. I only provided my standard for "harm". A conversation or debate on what constitutes the harmful degree or effects of perpetuating false stereotypes of a people based on past bigotry is both beyond the scope of this forum and something that I think one has to decide for themselves. So I can only offer my standard, where you personally fall on this issue is entirely up to you, I won't be attempting to convince you either way.

The only thing that we can objectively discuss is the accuracy of the information presented.