So not into D&D...sell me on something else!?

[TristramEvans]

Oh, Everway is an interesting suggestion btw. Cards instead of dice, and the system is kinda wishy-washy, but the chargen system is a thing of beauty, and the setting as presented in the Spherewalker Sourcebook is just dripping with imagination and plot hooks.

It technically meets your criteria, but I suspect it would be a hard sell. If your players have preferences about roll high vs roll low then they may reject card-based resolution offhand (honestly, as a player, I don't really like card-based mechanics either, even when they are more substantially a complete system like Marvel saga. No idea why, it seems to be a purely aesthetic preference).

How do your players feel about dice pools btw?

 

[Silverlion]

Your players sound very picky, why don't you get them to pick a system, or several to give you a choice on what you'd rather run?

It's funny, the dynamic of my gaming group is so different. We take turns pitching a campaign or one shot concept, but the system used is totally in the GM's hands, and outside of a few clearly stated preferences on each of our parts, there is no; I'd guess I'd call it "player concern"; over the system used. Often we have no idea what system we're using until we gather for the game session and make characters if necessary.

However, generally, I'm the one running a long campaign and my gaming friends tend towards periodic one-shots (or 2-3 shots), so that may contribute to it to some degree - less system investment necessary. But it never even came up when I initially pitched the current long-running Phaserip campaign, over ten years ago, and my players have been mercilessly experimented on while playtesting Phaserip subsystems, which they have no problem with. But I also wonder if it's because we mostly share a style of play that de-emphasizes the system over improvisational role-play and common sense rulings (not 100% GM Fiat, but closer to Everway than most discussions of game groups that I've encountered online).

That's how it used to be, but somewhere along the way one of them became old and picky. One became obsessed with D&D, IDK why.
I realized earlier that part of my problem with D&D is class abilities are designed to limit your imagination in play (Basically giving you a mechanic for each tiny class ability/ thing rather than letting you describe awesome things and getting to just DO THE AWESOME THING)

My online group (of two) is pretty much try anything, and it makes me lament for my FTF group as they were in the past.

 

[Silverlion]

Oh, Everway is an interesting suggestion btw. Cards instead of dice, and the system is kinda wishy-washy, but the chargen system is a thing of beauty, and the setting as presented in the Spherewalker Sourcebook is just dripping with imagination and plot hooks.

It technically meets your criteria, but I suspect it would be a hard sell. If your players have preferences about roll high vs roll low then they may reject card-based resolution offhand (honestly, as a player, I don't really like card-based mechanics either, even when they are more substantially a complete system like Marvel saga. No idea why, it seems to be a purely aesthetic preference).

How do your players feel about dice pools btw?

Dice pools are fun, and I'm fine with card mechanics so long as they're solid (like Marvel Saga), so are they as its that group's second favorite supers game.

 

[AsenRG]

Honestly? I don't care, I mean for me roll high, roll low both work, but one of my FTF game groups (the one meeting currently) is stuck on it.
For some darn reason.
I like percentile (especially for Sci-fi)

Well...can you just offer him "roll and add, get over 101" and run Destined?

I know, I know, but it had to be said, it's not like there weren't such suggestions already...

 

[TristramEvans]

Dice pools are fun, and I'm fine with card mechanics so long as they're solid (like Marvel Saga), so are they as its that group's second favorite supers game.

If Dice Pools are an option, are you familiar with the Riddle of Steel (or one of it's clones)? I don;t want to pitch a game you already know, but if not, I can heartily recommend it.

 

[SoManyRats]

Yes. For strange reasons*, both it (and an MSH hack, are out.)



*Terrible player's opinion. He has a lame aversion to chart resolution (even if it makes things easier, I know, I know. Strange right?

If chart resolution is out then Against The Darkmaster is out. The attack charts do a great job getting results off one dice roll but are most definitely charts.

 

[Silverlion]

If Dice Pools are an option, are you familiar with the Riddle of Steel (or one of it's clones)? I don;t want to pitch a game you already know, but if not, I can heartily recommend it.

Isn't it focused on combat via warrior types?

 

[SoManyRats]

Arrowflight 3rd ed quickstart is free and seems to fit. It's fantasy - multiple Kinds (dwarf, elf, ent, all kinds of animal people), magic, but also black powder weapons. No classes, no levels. Character creation uses a lifepath (roll or pick) to pre-load skills but you can then purchase more ranks in any skill (at creation and with experience). Task resolution is stat+skill+d12 vs. target number, roll-over. Advancement is by spending xp to purchase or raise skills individually.

 

[AsenRG]

Isn't it focused on combat via warrior types?

Depends. Magic can definitely outpace that - in fact that was a major criticism against the game, IIRC...

OTOH, most of us don't sign up to play a game translating HEMA combat to tabletop if they'd want to play wizards!

 

[Silverlion]

Arrowflight 3rd ed quickstart is free and seems to fit. It's fantasy - multiple Kinds (dwarf, elf, ent, all kinds of animal people), magic, but also black powder weapons. No classes, no levels. Character creation uses a lifepath (roll or pick) to pre-load skills but you can then purchase more ranks in any skill (at creation and with experience). Task resolution is stat+skill+d12 vs. target number, roll-over. Advancement is by spending xp to purchase or raise skills individually.

It is roll over? That's cool, pretty sure the earlier version was rolled under! I was looking at that!

 

[SoManyRats]

At least in the quick start it is roll-over. I saw reviews saying the 2nd ed was roll-under, so I double-checked.

 

[Armchair Gamer]

Dice pools are fun, and I'm fine with card mechanics so long as they're solid (like Marvel Saga), so are they as its that group's second favorite supers game.

If that's the case, then I'd recommend Dragonlance: Fifth Age if not for the fact that the cards are so hard to find ...

 

[Triumvir]

I don't mind roll-under (in fact I love BRP in many flavours), but I wouldn't be too keen to try systems that want you to work out the difference between your roll and the target number as a measure of degree of success. Feels like the kind of thing that is easy to understand in principle but likely to be a pain in the neck in play. And I consider myself OK with mental arithmetic.

Blue Planet 2e for ex. wants you to roll up to three dice, take the lowest, and then subtract that from your stat+skill+mod to get your "action value". If it's an initiative throw, that number then gets referenced from a table to work out how many actions you take in the round. Seems a bit clunky even reading through. Maybe it flows better in actual play.

 

[SJB]

I want to see a fantasy game that is: roll high, Class-Less, Level-less (No 'rank'/'circle' or other stand in for class level that means 'overall character power in everything')

Heorot. Everyone is a Hero. 2d6 roll over.
Elephant and the Macaw Banner. Everyone is in fantasy Brazil. 3d6 roll over.
Ars Magica. Everyone is a magician. 1d10 roll over.

These are all read but not played games for me - they look good but could be rubbish.

For play we ended up writing our own rules to meet these criteria. 2d10 roll over. The process of creation is a lot of fun in itself.

 

[Silverlion]

If that's the case, then I'd recommend Dragonlance: Fifth Age if not for the fact that the cards are so hard to find ...

Yeah, if I could find another copy and the Bestiary I'd be happy, gave mine to a friend, and it was stolen from him (He was upset as I gave him mine as a gift because he loved it so much.)

 

[CRKrueger]

Honestly? I don't care, I mean for me roll high, roll low both work, but one of my FTF game groups (the one meeting currently) is stuck on it.
For some darn reason.
I like percentile (especially for Sci-fi)

So tell them there is no such game that fits all the criteria so shut up and play what you run.

 

[TristramEvans]

Isn't it focused on combat via warrior types?

I'm not sure how to answer that other than to say "yes, it is a fantasy RPG"?

Riddle of Steel is known for it's combat system, sure, which is exceptional.

 

[Savage Schemer]

If you're up for bringing your own setting, Mini Six. It's not explicitly fantasy, but it's one of my go-to's for the job. Just be sure to use the Simpler Magic System instead of the one in the booklet. No classes, roll-over, handfuls to buckets of dice just for the fun of it.

 

[AsenRG]

Elephant and the Macaw Banner. Everyone is in fantasy Brazil. 3d6 roll over.

That's right into my the ballpark of my current* interests. Care to tell me more...possibly in a new thread?

So far, I've found this...

The Venom of Yara'Raka - The Elephant and Macaw Banner

The Venom of Yara’Raka is a one-shot adventure designed for a mediator and three to six players, with an average duration of three hours. It includes six pre-generated player characters. This is an adventure for The Elephant & Macaw Banner Roleplaying Game. You can get the full rulebook in PDF...

www.eamb.org

*Which is, roughly, the Apennine Peninsula, the Iberian Peninsula, and all the countries related to them culturally - which, yes, I do realize is a huge area. Also, separately, India, Central Europe, Central Asian, & Caucasus...but that's a work-in-progress as I wouldn't yet even agree to run a game set in the latter half of that area.

 

[SJB]

That's right into my the ballpark of my current* interests. Care to tell me more...possibly in a new thread?

So far, I've found this...

The Venom of Yara'Raka - The Elephant and Macaw Banner

The Venom of Yara’Raka is a one-shot adventure designed for a mediator and three to six players, with an average duration of three hours. It includes six pre-generated player characters. This is an adventure for The Elephant & Macaw Banner Roleplaying Game. You can get the full rulebook in PDF...

www.eamb.org

*Which is, roughly, the Apennine Peninsula, the Iberian Peninsula, and all the countries related to them culturally - which, yes, I do realize is a huge area. Also, separately, India, Central Europe, Central Asian, & Caucasus...but that's a work-in-progress as I wouldn't yet even agree to run a game set in the latter half of that area.

I’m no expert on The Elephant and the Macaw banner, apart from reading the rules: I picked it up because we often play in Early Modern settings. It’s well worth it for those with a similar interest. The game’s presumed setting is Brazil and West Africa c. 1576.

E&MB is a Brazilian RPG. It is based on a series of adventure novels of the same name. It was actually developed as a history teaching aid. There is a chapter on use in the classroom. However, the rules are not at all childish, just clearly laid out and very evocatively illustrated. There are rules for magic users - indigenous and invader - and other fantastical elements.

The game was translated by the Anglo-Irish designer Tom McGrenery, co-host of the Fear of a Black Dragon podcast, and released through his game publisher Porcupine. It is available on DriveThru and includes a Quickstart called Legend of the Gold Condor, which sends the characters deep into the Amazon.

DriveThruRPG

preview.drivethrurpg.com

Porcupine have kept up publication since 2017. There are a range of scenarios.

 

[EmperorNorton]

All this thread is doing is making me realize how it feels like 99% of the high fantasy rpgs are class and level based.

 

[gruagach]

A lot of gamers I've met and played with over the years either just assume "class and level" is required for an RPG, or actively like "class and level" as a way to build/describe/play their characters.

I couldn't put an exact percentage on "a lot", but my gut says it's more than 1/3 but less than 1/2 of the hundreds of different folks I've played with in the past 40 (yikes !) years.

So that doesn't surprise me.

I lot of "new" rpgs get their start as someone's personal reaction to playing D&D, which is very likely their first roleplaying game. And so to those first time game designers, "class and level" may be just how it's done.

 

[Silverlion]

All this thread is doing is making me realize how it feels like 99% of the high fantasy rpgs are class and level based.

Oh yeah, and that's a problem. I mean, I don't mind classes for some games, but honestly? I am tired of that design. I want more freedom (That is me, not my players for once!)

 

[The Mad Hatter]

Oh yeah, and that's a problem. I mean, I don't mind classes for some games, but honestly? I am tired of that design. I want more freedom (That is me, not my players for once!)

But a lot of the suggestions with classes in the thread give you said freedom. Rolemaster, Earthdawn and Against the Darkmaster don't have classes like D&D does. They're more like archetypes in a way. You could remove classes from these games without much hassle unlike D&D.

 

[AsenRG]

I’m no expert on The Elephant and the Macaw banner, apart from reading the rules: I picked it up because we often play in Early Modern settings. It’s well worth it for those with a similar interest. The game’s presumed setting is Brazil and West Africa c. 1576.

E&MB is a Brazilian RPG. It is based on a series of adventure novels of the same name. It was actually developed as a history teaching aid. There is a chapter on use in the classroom. However, the rules are not at all childish, just clearly laid out and very evocatively illustrated. There are rules for magic users - indigenous and invader - and other fantastical elements.

The game was translated by the Anglo-Irish designer Tom McGrenery, co-host of the Fear of a Black Dragon podcast, and released through his game publisher Porcupine. It is available on DriveThru and includes a Quickstart called Legend of the Gold Condor, which sends the characters deep into the Amazon.

DriveThruRPG

preview.drivethrurpg.com

Porcupine have kept up publication since 2017. There are a range of scenarios.

That actually sounds great, especially the "being used as history teaching aid"!

All this thread is doing is making me realize how it feels like 99% of the high fantasy rpgs are class and level based.

Yeah, and that frankly sucks.

A lot of gamers I've met and played with over the years either just assume "class and level" is required for an RPG, or actively like "class and level" as a way to build/describe/play their characters.

I couldn't put an exact percentage on "a lot", but my gut says it's more than 1/3 but less than 1/2 of the hundreds of different folks I've played with in the past 40 (yikes !) years.

So that doesn't surprise me.

Doesn't surprise me either - and I've got nothing against those that like classes and levels...that is, nothing except disagreement that it makes for good design.
But assuming that classes and levels are required?
Yeah, that shit's gotta stop...

I lot of "new" rpgs get their start as someone's personal reaction to playing D&D, which is very likely their first roleplaying game. And so to those first time game designers, "class and level" may be just how it's done.

Quite likely, but that's merely a matter of the number of people who start with D&D. Nothing more, nothing less.

Oh yeah, and that's a problem. I mean, I don't mind classes for some games, but honestly? I am tired of that design. I want more freedom (That is me, not my players for once!)

Yeah, definitely.
I mean, that's what I said back in 1999, right after being introduced to D&D...

(I was familiar with levels and classes via Bloodsword, though, so I had already-formed opinions due to other games. And I was familiar with skill-based systems via, well, multiple gamebooks, though most of the names apart from The Way of the Tiger would be totally unfamiliar to the rest of you).

But a lot of the suggestions with classes in the thread give you said freedom. Rolemaster, Earthdawn and Against the Darkmaster don't have classes like D&D does. They're more like archetypes in a way. You could remove classes from these games without much hassle unlike D&D.

Earthdawn? A game that has professions that grant you sometimes similar, albeit subtly different ways to use the magic of the world?

Yeah, removing classes wouldn't be trivial at all, there, in my book (though admittedly that might be due to my lack of experience with the setting&system).

 

[The Mad Hatter]

Earthdawn? A game that has professions that grant you sometimes similar, albeit subtly different ways to use the magic of the world?

Yeah, removing classes wouldn't be trivial at all, there, in my book (though admittedly that might be due to my lack of experience with the setting&system).

It's been years since I read Earthdawn and even longer since I played. But as I remember the classes, (called Disciplines), they give you access to certain talents. So you could just remove the classes and have the players pick talents freely. But Earthdawn is also heavily married to its setting, so lore wise the classes matter.

 

[AsenRG]

It's been years since I read Earthdawn and even longer since I played. But as I remember the classes, (called Disciplines), they give you access to certain talents. So you could just remove the classes and have the players pick talents freely. But Earthdawn is also heavily married to its setting, so lore wise the classes matter.

Nah, I didn't mean "lore-wise". What I mean is that there seemed to be combos of disciplines that would be too OP, so players would be faced with the "play your character or play the system" type of results...
That kind of stuff should be less likely in a system that's outright skill-based, and indeed aren't as common as some people seem to claim, IME...but then EarthDawn isn't even meant to be one of those, so you really can't blame the system for such results!

Admittedly, it has been several years since I played it, so I might as well be wrong outright.

 

[Voros]

Anyone mention Pelgrane's Swords of the Serpentine yet?

Swords of the Serpentine

A GUMSHOE roleplaying game of swords & sorcery! by Kevin Kulp and Emily Dresner When it’s summer, you smell her before you see her. As you come around the curve of the Serpentine river the scent of the open sea is replaced by the stench of low tide, of boat tar, of rare spices spilled from a...

pelgranepress.com

Or the first rate Heart?

Heart: The City Beneath RPG - Rowan, Rook and Decard

A red wet heaven slumbers fitful under the city of Spire. Stock note: Heart is currently out of stock in most places. The fastest way to get hold of the new printing is likely to be to pre-order it through the Dagger in the Heart campaign here.

rowanrookanddecard.com

 

[RunningLaser]

How about Metal, Magic and Lore?

Crunchy, percetile based, detailed armor, hit locations....

 

[AsenRG]

How about Metal, Magic and Lore?

Crunchy, percetile based, detailed armor, hit locations....

I love it, but isn't it roll under?

 

[RunningLaser]

Could be? Been years since I looked at it.

 

[SoManyRats]

According to the rule sampler at the page linked above, it is roll-under, sorry.

 

[Triumvir]

The Elephant and the Macaw banner, apart from reading the rules: I picked it up because we often play in Early Modern settings. It’s well worth it for those with a similar interest. The game’s presumed setting is Brazil and West Africa c. 1576.

This game looks amazing. Thanks for sharing.

I have been noodling around with the Portuguese empire as a setting, although more the Indo-Pacific than the Atlantic. This is an era where an African guy could end up a samurai (or next door to one anyway). An Abyssianian sorceror, a Sufi mystic, a renegade Catholic English nobleman-pirate, and a rogue Janissary could quite plausibly end up in the same party. Anyway, I will definitely be grabbing this game for ideas. Cheers!

 

[Rasyr]

OP is tired of D&D and D&D assumptions. OP is looking for a fantasy game that meets the following criteria:
- Not D&D
- No Classes
- No Levels
- Roll High

Umm.. Silverlion? Novus 2e. No classes, no levels, roll high, 2d10 based. Customizable spell system. Pretty much everything you asked for.

And if you want something more similar to Against the Darkmaster, but without the RM-esque combat, I just released Fantasy Express this morning. Now, it does have classes and levels (well, Vocational Kits, there are 32, and you choose 2 to create your character, so about 528 possible combinations), but everything uses 2d10 open-ended dice roll. There is a single universal table (sits in one corner of the character sheet.., may 1/8 of the page or less), but allows for dynamic combat, and skill rolls (even combat and casting) can earn Success Levels, which are then used to select Critical Results (no random criticals).

No, there's a clone like Against the Dark Master that's science fiction.

You may be thinking of the Navigator RPG which is technically a SpaceMaster 1e clone.

 

[Gringnr]

Talislanta 4th Edition uses archetypes, but they're not classes. D20, roll high. No level.

 

[AsenRG]

skill rolls (even combat and casting) can earn Success Levels, which are then used to select Critical Results (no random criticals).

Hmm...I don't remember that one from the last time I read Novus, might have been 1e. Care to tell us more?

 

[Rasyr]

Hmm...I don't remember that one from the last time I read Novus, might have been 1e. Care to tell us more?

That is because that line you quoted wasn't about Novus 2e (Silverlion knows all about Novus 2e), it was about Fantasy Express (my 2d10 variant of Against the Darkmaster).

In Fantasy Express, everything is resolved using the following table


So, if you are using an Arming Sword, your attacks would have a Damage Rating of 10s/8p (s = slashing, p=piercing/stabbing, you choose the type of attack you do, so most often you would be slashing, but there may be some instances where you have to stab instead or want to stab instead hehe)

Armor also has Ratings, a Soft Leather Hauberk has a rating of B4/S6/P4/E5/SL0 (B = bashing attacks, S = Slashing attacks, P = piercing attacks, E = energy/Elemental Attacks (i.e. magic), SL = Success Levels (this lasr is there for certain large or super large creatures and magical armors)

When making an attack, you roll 2d10oe + skill - foe's DM (Defensive Modifier), and look up the results. Shields and Parrying both add to DM.
Partial Success = DR minus foe's AR (armor rating) against the type of attack.
Success = deal DR + (amount over 20) - foe's Armor Rating, then select any result(s) you want from the Combat Success Levels table.
Success Levels to NOT have be spent en bloc, they may be spread across multiple results if you have enough.
Below is a portion of that table, so that you can see some of the effects (skills and spell casting have smaller similar tables.


If you are thinking that this looks kinda like the Boons table from Novus 1e, that is because that is where I stole the idea from.

 

[AsenRG]

That is because that line you quoted wasn't about Novus 2e (Silverlion knows all about Novus 2e), it was about Fantasy Express (my 2d10 variant of Against the Darkmaster).

Sorry for the misunderstanding, then.

In Fantasy Express, everything is resolved using the following table
View attachment 71522

So, if you are using an Arming Sword, your attacks would have a Damage Rating of 10s/8p (s = slashing, p=piercing/stabbing, you choose the type of attack you do, so most often you would be slashing, but there may be some instances where you have to stab instead or want to stab instead hehe)

Armor also has Ratings, a Soft Leather Hauberk has a rating of B4/S6/P4/E5/SL0 (B = bashing attacks, S = Slashing attacks, P = piercing attacks, E = energy/Elemental Attacks (i.e. magic), SL = Success Levels (this lasr is there for certain large or super large creatures and magical armors)

When making an attack, you roll 2d10oe + skill - foe's DM (Defensive Modifier), and look up the results. Shields and Parrying both add to DM.
Partial Success = DR minus foe's AR (armor rating) against the type of attack.
Success = deal DR + (amount over 20) - foe's Armor Rating, then select any result(s) you want from the Combat Success Levels table.
Success Levels to NOT have be spent en bloc, they may be spread across multiple results if you have enough.
Below is a portion of that table, so that you can see some of the effects (skills and spell casting have smaller similar tables.
View attachment 71523

If you are thinking that this looks kinda like the Boons table from Novus 1e, that is because that is where I stole the idea from.

I was thinking Dragon Age, if it matters - but I like it!

OTOH, much depends on what is the Foe's DM. Given the table and depending on values, some foes might be outright unhittable without an explosion (I suspect oe is meant to be "open ended", please correct me if I'm wrong...

 

[Rasyr]

Sorry for the misunderstanding, then.


I was thinking Dragon Age, if it matters - but I like it!

OTOH, much depends on what is the Foe's DM. Given the table and depending on values, some foes might be outright unhittable without an explosion (I suspect oe is meant to be "open ended", please correct me if I'm wrong...

Yes, oe = open-ended
The low end is not open-ended.

If you roll a 19 or 20, then you roll 2d10 again and add to the previous roll(s).
There are background options that expand the oe range to 18-20 and 17-20 respectively (but they also increase the UM (unmodified) Critical Failure range from 2 to 2-3 and 2-4 respectively)

 

[AsenRG]

So what's the odds of having 3 DM more than the opponent's attack value?
Because if you do, it's open season, with merely 3% chance to be struck (though if you do, it's probably going to be bad).