Who is the most influential living game designer?

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Baulderstone said:
His mechanical design impact is narrow, but I think the feeling his games evoke has been more influential. Palladium pioneered the genre of games that feel like they should have an action figure line. Of the top of my head, Torg and Savage Worlds come to mind.
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Torg is a pretty obvious influence on Savage Worlds, and Greg Gorden did that and DC HEROES, which was specifically designed to fit both Jimmy Olsen and Superman into the same stat scale, so I would say Gorden deserves at least as much credit as a designer as Siembieda.
I also agree that Vincent Baker is the biggest influence on gaming right now, though I don't think that's a good thing.

JG
 
Voros said:
I mean, Cook (and Moldvay) are the real Godfathers of the OSR imo, moreso than Gygax, who is invoked more as a totem than an actual influence (as the completely distorted invention and use of the terms 'Gygaxian naturalism' and 'Gygaxian democracy' ((wtf??)) reveal).
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Interesting point. Though I think it's much more Moldvay Basic than Cook/Marsh Expert which is regarded as a seminal work. Moldvay's the guy who clearly set up the 'closed play loop' (per Alexander) of D&D as a 'complete game', which Gygax left pretty vague/implied. I find I still refer to Moldvay Basic frequently, whereas I don't open Cook/Marsh Expert that much; I'm more likely to refer to Mentzer Expert. I also read over Gygax's OD&D The Underworld & Wilderness Adventures fairly often, along with the 1e DMG.

I don't think Cook/Marsh present a wilderness (hexcrawl?) 'complete game' or 'closed play loop' to anything like the extent Moldvay does (or, presumably, the actual Outdoor Survival game did). I think this is still an issue even today, and something designers are grappling with. I recently bought Free League's Forbidden Lands, it seems to be making a serious effort in that direction.
 
who wrote OSRIC?

if anyone besides Dancy is getting credit for the OSR, it should be them
 
TristramEvans said:
who wrote OSRIC?

if anyone besides Dancy is getting credit for the OSR, it should be them
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Stuart Marshall and Matt Finch. Marshall is the official designated primary author and publisher in order that WoTC would have had to take legal action over the OGL & (c) in England, a much less litigant friendly jurisdiction than the USA. His greatest achievement IMO was paying the few hundred £ for a formal legal consultation & a promise the firm would take on his case no-win no-fee. After some harumphing Hasbro-WoTC backed down without a fight, opening the floodgates to the OSR.
 
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While Marc Gascoigne is mostly remembered for his work at Games Workshop, this title is what really puts him on the list.
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S'mon said:
Interesting point. Though I think it's much more Moldvay Basic than Cook/Marsh Expert which is regarded as a seminal work. Moldvay's the guy who clearly set up the 'closed play loop' (per Alexander) of D&D as a 'complete game', which Gygax left pretty vague/implied. I find I still refer to Moldvay Basic frequently, whereas I don't open Cook/Marsh Expert that much; I'm more likely to refer to Mentzer Expert. I also read over Gygax's OD&D The Underworld & Wilderness Adventures fairly often, along with the 1e DMG.

I don't think Cook/Marsh present a wilderness (hexcrawl?) 'complete game' or 'closed play loop' to anything like the extent Moldvay does (or, presumably, the actual Outdoor Survival game did). I think this is still an issue even today, and something designers are grappling with. I recently bought Free League's Forbidden Lands, it seems to be making a serious effort in that direction.
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Good point but I was thinking more of their adventures, both their collaborations and solo work.

They embraced pulp adventures, S&S, sf fantasy, CAS, satire and weirdness in one big cosmic gumbo.

 
S'mon said:
In terms of positive influence, Jackson & (especially) Livingstone in the UK are obvious, though their genius is as much as businessmen, founders of Games Workshop, as creators of Fighting Fantasy.

I think Mike Pondsmith might be the most positively influential US designer outside the fantasy genre. Because he's black I have to double-check that I'm not falling victim to the Mary Seacole Effect, where a black person becomes renowned far beyond their actual importance (to the extent that UK schoolkids now think Seacole was far more important than Florence Nightingale, who revolutionised nursing care). But from everything I can tell, I believe Pondsmith has earned his position purely on merit.
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I'd heard of Cyberpunk, Dream Park and Castle Falkenstein before I knew Pondsmith was black.

JG
 
T. Foster said:
Ray Winninger also wrote Underground (actually released as “Ray Winninger’s Underground”), one of my favorites from the baroque post-WOD “peak rpg” period just before Magic: The Gathering ate everybody’s lunch and pretty much eviscerated the rpg hobby. It’s got absurdly high production values for the era, a super-lore-heavy original setting, and is full of “90s cool” attitude - quoting song lyrics, including shout outs to Chuck D and Rage Against The Machine and David Lynch and Quentin Tarantino in the acknowledgments section, etc. It’s also got a genuine social consciousness and point of view (and, alas, the dystopian future it depicted isn’t all that far off from what we’re now living through).

It wasn’t influential at all (not least because Mayfair Games canceled it and got out of the rpg business about a year after it was released) but it feels like in an alternate universe it should have been. IMO it took what was working for WW and Shadowrun but did it better and more interestingly.

So I thought it was pretty neat when he was hired to run the D&D line. Sadly, he got chewed up and spit out pretty quickly and (at least AFAICT) had little if any visible impact on the line (though from some recent Facebook posts it sounds like some changes he implemented (like emphasizing more in-house single author works instead of relying on a huge team of freelancers for everything) haven’t actually been seen by the public yet and will only show up in books to be released later in 2023).
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Its also one of the only ttrpg's of the time I can think of with mechanics for affecting the "Parameters" of society (& that being the core focus of the game).

Your stories should concentrate on allowing the players to explore what it is like to change their environment and how such changes affect society. - Underground RPG page 241
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Art's Puzzlebox said:
Its also one of the only ttrpg's of the time I can think of with mechanics for affecting the "Parameters" of society (& that being the core focus of the game).
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Yes, I've heard that early in it's development, Mage: the Ascension was going to borrow from that, with players able to affect the local paradigm through their actions, but they gave up and went with the boring choice of the Technocratic paradigm being everywhere and unchangeable.

A guy in one my gaming groups is planning running Underground soon. I am very much looking forward to it. He's currently running a great game of Paranoia. I'm really enjoying it as it my first time playing it with a group where everyone actually gets it.
 
TristramEvans said:
yeah, i didnt know until like 2020 or whenever the new cyberpunk videogame started getting talked about
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I definitely didn't know in the (very) early 1990s when I was buying Cyberpunk 2020, Maximum Metal, & the great Listen Up You Primitive Screwheads... I just thought his stuff was cool.
 
Too many variables in the question. Influential to whom?

The slack-jawed public at large? Players? Other designers looking for ideas to steal?

Almost every role-playing game is a collaberative effort, a product of it's time, despised by many and pilfered for every idea (good and bad) by others.

Fuck it. I'm going to say Kevin Siembieda. He invented Mega Damage. No-one else has Mega Damage.
 
Baulderstone said:
Yes, I've heard that early in it's development, Mage: the Ascension was going to borrow from that, with players able to affect the local paradigm through their actions, but they gave up and went with the boring choice of the Technocratic paradigm being everywhere and unchangeable.

A guy in one my gaming groups is planning running Underground soon. I am very much looking forward to it. He's currently running a great game of Paranoia. I'm really enjoying it as it my first time playing it with a group where everyone actually gets it.
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Awesome to hear that Underground is still getting some love (& Paranoia too!). I hope you have fun! Try not to get pasted (by the very pinnacle of slingshot technology).
 
Chaotic Wooster said:
Fuck it. I'm going to say Kevin Siembieda. He invented Mega Damage. No-one else has Mega Damage.
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Yes, I remember being really impressed with that idea when I first saw it in Robotech. I can't think of an earlier game with that kind of tiered damage system, and it was certainly an influential idea as WEG Star Wars took a similar approach when dealing with vehicles.
 
Chaotic Wooster said:
Too many variables in the question. Influential to whom?

The slack-jawed public at large? Players? Other designers looking for ideas to steal?

Almost every role-playing game is a collaberative effort, a product of it's time, despised by many and pilfered for every idea (good and bad) by others.

Fuck it. I'm going to say Kevin Siembieda. He invented Mega Damage. No-one else has Mega Damage.
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Maybe there's a reason for that....
 
Baulderstone said:
Yes, I remember being really impressed with that idea when I first saw it in Robotech. I can't think of an earlier game with that kind of tiered damage system, and it was certainly an influential idea as WEG Star Wars took a similar approach when dealing with vehicles.
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Aye, it really did work in the original Robotech book. It's been... Inconsistently used since. Still, it's a good concept.

Yes, the d6 Star Wars scale table was revelatory to me the first time I saw it.

Baulderstone said:
I think it's a good mechanic, but he definitely went overboard with it. It certainly never should have been in Palladium Fantasy.
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Was it ever in Palladium Fantasy? I could be wrong, but can't think of an instance.
 
Chaotic Wooster said:
Aye, it really did work in the original Robotech book. It's been... Inconsistently used since. Still, it's a good concept.

Yes, the d6 Star Wars scale table was revelatory to me the first time I saw it.



Was it ever in Palladium Fantasy? I could be wrong, but can't think of an instance.
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I thought it was in a later edition of it. I never personally owned it, so I could be wrong.
 
Baulderstone said:
I thought it was in a later edition of it. I never personally owned it, so I could be wrong.
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I have most of them, though I'm not immediately able to check. To the best of my knowledge, there's no M.D. stuff in there. There's some creatures with so much S.D.C. it might as well be... But I believe* that any conversion from M.D.C. settings to S.D.C. settings like Palladium Fantasy still involves switching damage types.

* and could well be completely wrong.
 
Bunch said:
I looked into this a little and could be wrong but what I found suggests SDC is added to 2nd edition not MDC
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SDC was always in there, wasn't it? It was the standard for as long as I can remember.
 
chuckdee said:
SDC was always in there, wasn't it? It was the standard for as long as I can remember.
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Based on my clearly flawed memory, I don't think Palladium fantasy had SDC for characters in the original edition, although it might have been in there in it's original function of tracking damage to objects. I thought SDC first entered the system in Heroes Unlimited and TMNT. I suspect I was misremembering the addition of SDC into Fantasy as being the addition of MDC.

I am bracing myself to be wrong again though. I lost most of my Palladium books decades ago sadly. I somehow still have the original Robotech core book and Zentraedi supplement and Tommy Brownell Tommy Brownell kindly gave me a later edition of Heroes Unlimited,
 
Baulderstone said:
Based on my clearly flawed memory, I don't think Palladium fantasy had SDC for characters in the original edition, although it might have been in there in it's original function of tracking damage to objects. I thought SDC first entered the system in Heroes Unlimited and TMNT. I suspect I was misremembering the addition of SDC into Fantasy as being the addition of MDC.

I am bracing myself to be wrong again though. I lost most of my Palladium books decades ago sadly. I somehow still have the original Robotech core book and Zentraedi supplement and Tommy Brownell Tommy Brownell kindly gave me a later edition of Heroes Unlimited,
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I know it was in the 2nd edition, and the 1st edition of TMNT and the 1st Edition of Mechanoids. I don't know how those relate to Rifts in the timeline though. I think Mechanoids might have been the first use of S.D.C. as that was 1981 and TMNT was 1985 IIRC.
 
Ok I pulled out my 1st edition revised. Monsters and armor have an AR rating that I believe is what it takes to do damage. Armor has an SDC value that I believe determines how long before it needs to be replaced.

The example is this. 4 is what it takes to hit anyone. The AR is what it takes to damage a person. The SDC is what takes damage if you roll over a 4 but under the AR.
 
Art's Puzzlebox said:
Awesome to hear that Underground is still getting some love (& Paranoia too!). I hope you have fun! Try not to get pasted (by the very pinnacle of slingshot technology).
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We had a thread on Underground where I wrote a review of it but I can't find it. Maybe it's been moved?
 
Voros said:
We had a thread on Underground where I wrote a review of it but I can't find it. Maybe it's been moved?
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Please do let me know if you find it again, I always enjoy reading new perspectives on Underground!
 
burbles said:
This raises the question - if one can influence in a 'good' way (ie 'x's ideas really influenced my rpg design for years) or bad way (whatever you do don't be like 'x', their rpg is roasted by people 30 years after it was released) do both influences count equally?
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Also, does indirect influence count:smile:?

Also, if negative influence counts, you're basically nominating the authors of FATAL...:wink:

Also, about advantage/disadvantage, I'm sure it's in Barbarians of Lemuria/Barbarians of Aftermath.
And let's not forget, the concept of advantage/disadvantage is basically how you roll stats in some TSR-era editions of D&D...4d6k3, anyone:grin:?
 
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chuckdee said:
I know it was in the 2nd edition, and the 1st edition of TMNT and the 1st Edition of Mechanoids. I don't know how those relate to Rifts in the timeline though. I think Mechanoids might have been the first use of S.D.C. as that was 1981 and TMNT was 1985 IIRC.
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Yeah, Mechanoids and Palladium Fantasy had S.D.C. be a trait of worn armour, and only hit points on characters. Heroes Unlimited slapped S.D.C. onto characters. Kev' says it was to represent boxers/fighters/heroes ability to withstand non-lethal blows for a time.

Can't argue his rationale, but I feel the amount of S.D.C. in most games is on the high side.

Splicers, Chaos Earth, RIFTS and Robotech are the M.D.C. settings. The rest are S.D.C. and at this point all include S.D.C. as component of worn armour AND character survivability. Though the horror games like Beyond the Supernatural and Dead Reign don't tend to give human characters all that much and the weapons are more damaging than they once were.
 
Baulderstone said:
I think it's a good mechanic, but he definitely went overboard with it. It certainly never should have been in Palladium Fantasy.
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Exactly. I thought it was perfect for Rift, Robotech etc, but I really disliked it when he added it to Palladium Fantasy.

edit: Darn it, I guess I miss recalled. Here's Kevin's break down of the changes. I'd have bet on the adding of MDC to PFrpg, lol guess I'm wrong.

Changes
Why do a second edition of the Palladium RPG in the first place?
Sales were still solid and people loved it.
A few reasons.
First, there hasn 't been a major revision of the game since its release
in 1 98 3 . Since that time, I ' ve made a number of changes and innovations
to the original game system. Things like S.D.C. and P.P. E. magic
1 1
that people love, and which appear i n all (or most) o f Palladium' s other
games. It was time to do a revision.
More importantly, I wanted to make the Palladium World the dynamic
place I had always envisioned. As good and loved as the original
fantasy game was, it was never exactly what I had originally envisioned.
In 1 9 8 3 , Palladium Books was a tiny newcomer to the roleplaying
market. I had very limited resources (mainly me and the helping
hand of a few friends like Alex, Erick, Matt and Ed) and barely enough
money to publish the game. The Palladium RPG would be the first perfect-
bound softcover RPG ever marketed; back then everything was
hardcover or put in a box. Only adventure and sourcebooks were softcovers
and they were saddle-stitched - magazine style, flat and stapled.
Many of my 30 distributors expressed grave concern over this
(then) revolutionary packaging. One of the big guys even told me that it
might destroy my company. Already taking what many saw as a big
risk, everybody insisted that I don 't go completely crazy and publish a
game with a very unique and specific world of my own creation. For
Pete ' s sake, make it more generic ! The idea being that a more generic
book would have greater universal appeal. Actually, I should have
known better. The Mechanoid Invasion® series had done very well, and
a few years later the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles and Robotech adaptations,
both with very specific settings and unique characters, would
become blockbusters surpassed only by Rifts®, my ultimate RPG environment.
Ah, but as they say, hindsight is 20/20. Without it, I decided to
play down on the uniqueness of the world and many of the different
types and approaches to magic, the broad range of nonhuman player
characters, and especially, the history, kingdoms and conflicts of the
Palladium World.
The book did great and the fantasy series became the cornerstone of
Palladium Books. Later books in the fantasy series would place more
emphasis on the world, races and history. And I was glad to see players
quickly recognized the incredible range and playability of the magic
and psionic system. Still, I felt cheated; it just wasn ' t everything I had
intended. I wanted to share that full zestful world with everybody out
there. So, I decided to pull a "George Lucas," by going back into my
old, favorite creation and make it better. Then, like Lucas with Star
Wars, I ' m going to add to the saga with new world and adventure books
to make the Second Edition Palladium Fantasy RPG series the most
epic, fun and best damn fantasy games on the market! The readers/players
will leam more about the Elf-Dwarf Wars, Time of a Thousand
Magicks, the Old Ones, the Wolfen Empire, the different races and
more ! Old nightmares will be awakened and new terrors will arise. Old
heroes will die and new ones will be born in an epic struggle between
good and evil, wrapped in adventures of high fantasy, just the way you
like it!
Kevin Siembieda
 
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T. Foster said:
Ray Winninger also wrote Underground (actually released as “Ray Winninger’s Underground”), one of my favorites from the baroque post-WOD “peak rpg” period just before Magic: The Gathering ate everybody’s lunch and pretty much eviscerated the rpg hobby. It’s got absurdly high production values for the era, a super-lore-heavy original setting, and is full of “90s cool” attitude - quoting song lyrics, including shout outs to Chuck D and Rage Against The Machine and David Lynch and Quentin Tarantino in the acknowledgments section, etc. It’s also got a genuine social consciousness and point of view (and, alas, the dystopian future it depicted isn’t all that far off from what we’re now living through).

It wasn’t influential at all (not least because Mayfair Games canceled it and got out of the rpg business about a year after it was released) but it feels like in an alternate universe it should have been. IMO it took what was working for WW and Shadowrun but did it better and more interestingly.

So I thought it was pretty neat when he was hired to run the D&D line. Sadly, he got chewed up and spit out pretty quickly and (at least AFAICT) had little if any visible impact on the line (though from some recent Facebook posts it sounds like some changes he implemented (like emphasizing more in-house single author works instead of relying on a huge team of freelancers for everything) haven’t actually been seen by the public yet and will only show up in books to be released later in 2023).
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Ray Winninger's Underground. Or as I called it, "The MARSHALL LAW Role-Playing Game."

Of course he got chewed up and spit out when he ran D&D. Apparently everybody does.

JG
 
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