[Kickstarter] Demon City by Zak Smith aka. Sabbath

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Trippy said:
I wonder when White Wolf eventually get round to doing a 5th Edition of Mage: The Ascension, whether a contribution of ideas might be made?
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the new video-game-company-owned White Wolf is currently relaunching, starting with Vampire by Kenneth Hite and co. Werewolf will most likely be next, then after that, if things are going smoothly, the other WoD properties will start to come out.

By then their situation will likely have changed a great deal from what it is today.
 
xanther said:
I often wonder why one needs a definition, what analysis or explication will one use it for?
If a definition is needed, then let's find one that does not abuse the common connotations of a term, that is close enough then explore what it means and identify edge cases and overlaps. We can discuss if games that meet the definition deliver the experience we expect therefrom, or even if such expectations are valid.
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You need definitions (especially highly technical ones, like those who would be used in discussing RPGs) to be able to express complex terms in concise language and build theories out of them without having to write an encyclopedia every time you're expressing a single idea.

Example: the "gamism" term of the Forge's GNS theory is flawed (like almost everything in that theory), but if it wasn't it would be useful to express player-challenge-based gameplay, and discuss its characteristics and its variants.

I believe it's about high time someone wrote an actual RPG theory. Unfortunately the waters have been poisoned so thoroughly that it has become nearly impossible.
 
Luca said:
You need definitions (especially highly technical ones, like those who would be used in discussing RPGs) to be able to express complex terms in concise language and build theories out of them without having to write an encyclopedia every time you're expressing a single idea.

Example: the "gamism" term of the Forge's GNS theory is flawed (like almost everything in that theory), but if it wasn't it would be useful to express player-challenge-based gameplay, and discuss its characteristics and its variants.

I believe it's about high time someone wrote an actual RPG theory. Unfortunately the waters have been poisoned so thoroughly that it has become nearly impossible.
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Welcome to The Pub Luca.

And I agree and I've expressed largely the same sentiments.
 
I am sitting
In the morning
At the diner
On the corner
I am waiting
At the counter
For the man
To pour the coffee
And he fills it
Only halfway
And before
I even argue
He is looking
Out the window
At somebody
Coming in
"It is always
Nice to see you"
Says the man
Behind the counter
To the woman
Who has come in
She is shaking
Her umbrella
And I look
The other way
As they are kissing
Their hellos
I'm pretending
Not to see them
And Instead
I pour the milk
I open
Up the paper
There's a story
Of an actor
Who had died
While he was drinking
He was no one
I had heard of
And I'm turning
To the horoscope
And looking
For the funnies
When I'm feeling
Someone watching me
And so
I raise my head
There's a woman
On the outside
Looking inside
Does she see me?
No she does not
Really see me
Cause she sees
Her own reflection
And I'm trying
Not to notice
That she's hitching
Up her skirt
And while she's
Straightening her stockings
Her hair
Is getting wet
Oh, this rain
It will continue
Through the morning
As I'm listening
To the bells
Of the cathedral
I am thinking
Of your voice
And of the midnight picnic
Once upon a time
Before the rain began
I finish up my coffee
It's time to catch the train.

I prefer the a cappella version from Solitude Standing. Did you know she writes and sings in such short phrases due to asthma?
 
Dumarest said:
Did you know she writes and sings in such short phrases due to asthma?
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Well, I didnt think it was due to talent...

giphy.gif
 
Dumarest said:
I am sitting
In the morning
At the diner
On the corner
I am waiting
At the counter
For the man
To pour the coffee
And he fills it
Only halfway
And before
I even argue
He is looking
Out the window
At somebody
Coming in
"It is always
Nice to see you"
Says the man
Behind the counter
To the woman
Who has come in
She is shaking
Her umbrella
And I look
The other way
As they are kissing
Their hellos
I'm pretending
Not to see them
And Instead
I pour the milk
I open
Up the paper
There's a story
Of an actor
Who had died
While he was drinking
He was no one
I had heard of
And I'm turning
To the horoscope
And looking
For the funnies
When I'm feeling
Someone watching me
And so
I raise my head
There's a woman
On the outside
Looking inside
Does she see me?
No she does not
Really see me
Cause she sees
Her own reflection
And I'm trying
Not to notice
That she's hitching
Up her skirt
And while she's
Straightening her stockings
Her hair
Is getting wet
Oh, this rain
It will continue
Through the morning
As I'm listening
To the bells
Of the cathedral
I am thinking
Of your voice
And of the midnight picnic
Once upon a time
Before the rain began
I finish up my coffee
It's time to catch the train.

I prefer the a cappella version from Solitude Standing. Did you know she writes and sings in such short phrases due to asthma?
Click to expand...

Someone is asking for a banning!!!
 
Zak Smith said:
A monster:

STRANGERS
Strangers feed on the anonymity of the city. Literally. Any residential building containing only occupants who do not know each others’ names and with at least five units will begin to attract Strangers. They put in applications like anyone else, generally have acceptable credit, and provide each other with references.
In public, they appear entirely human, but cannot go out in the same skin twice. The physical characteristics, style, and demeanor of theses skins, which rot off like peach peels after a day’s errands, cling to the local average.
Incapable of direct violence, but driven—like all species—to occupy as much space as they can, they spend their time attempting to quietly make human life nearby unpleasant so that real people will move. They make anonymous noise complaints, vote in favor of real estate developers, drive cars with piercing and hypersensitive alarms, cook meals they never eat solely to fill halls with inscrutable humid smells, interfere with cell towers, give 20s to only the violent panhandlers and call the police on the rest. At home they sag, shedding, onto Ikea chairs, buying credit default swaps, writing computer viruses, leaving drive-by comments on social media and masturbating to the worst porn.
Strangers avoid any interaction which might cause someone to ask their name—they have none. If engaged in any remotely intimate way, they make an excuse and flee. There are whole buildings, districts, perhaps even cities occupied only by Strangers.
Design Notes:
Strangers create an off-beat mystery story, heavy on investigation: Someone follows a person who goes into an apartment building and never comes out, or catches a Stranger in a minor act of irritating sabotage, or breaks into an apartment to discover nothing but a pile of J Crew and a headless face on the carpet. The party must then find a way to understand the nature of the infection, how far it’s spread, and do something about it.
Calm: 1
Agility: 1
Toughness: 1
Perception: 4
Appeal: 2
Cash: 3
Knowledge: 3
Calm Check: 7
Cards: Tower (16), Hermit (9)
Special abilities:
Isolationist metabolism: Strangers do not need to eat or breathe—they live off the alienation produced by creatures passing one another with no acknowledgement.
Skinchanging: Strangers grow a new skin in their sleep, different than any they’ve worn before.
Weaknesses:
Strangers cannot commit violence or speak names. Their ability to lie or create any kind of convincing narrative is very limited.
Click to expand...

Oooh, this is good. Sold
 
Zak Smith said:
A monster:

STRANGERS
Strangers feed on the anonymity of the city. Literally. Any residential building containing only occupants who do not know each others’ names and with at least five units will begin to attract Strangers. They put in applications like anyone else, generally have acceptable credit, and provide each other with references.
In public, they appear entirely human, but cannot go out in the same skin twice. The physical characteristics, style, and demeanor of theses skins, which rot off like peach peels after a day’s errands, cling to the local average.
Incapable of direct violence, but driven—like all species—to occupy as much space as they can, they spend their time attempting to quietly make human life nearby unpleasant so that real people will move. They make anonymous noise complaints, vote in favor of real estate developers, drive cars with piercing and hypersensitive alarms, cook meals they never eat solely to fill halls with inscrutable humid smells, interfere with cell towers, give 20s to only the violent panhandlers and call the police on the rest. At home they sag, shedding, onto Ikea chairs, buying credit default swaps, writing computer viruses, leaving drive-by comments on social media and masturbating to the worst porn.
Strangers avoid any interaction which might cause someone to ask their name—they have none. If engaged in any remotely intimate way, they make an excuse and flee. There are whole buildings, districts, perhaps even cities occupied only by Strangers.
Design Notes:
Strangers create an off-beat mystery story, heavy on investigation: Someone follows a person who goes into an apartment building and never comes out, or catches a Stranger in a minor act of irritating sabotage, or breaks into an apartment to discover nothing but a pile of J Crew and a headless face on the carpet. The party must then find a way to understand the nature of the infection, how far it’s spread, and do something about it.
Calm: 1
Agility: 1
Toughness: 1
Perception: 4
Appeal: 2
Cash: 3
Knowledge: 3
Calm Check: 7
Cards: Tower (16), Hermit (9)
Special abilities:
Isolationist metabolism: Strangers do not need to eat or breathe—they live off the alienation produced by creatures passing one another with no acknowledgement.
Skinchanging: Strangers grow a new skin in their sleep, different than any they’ve worn before.
Weaknesses:
Strangers cannot commit violence or speak names. Their ability to lie or create any kind of convincing narrative is very limited.
Click to expand...
Very cool. It reminds me a little of "The Other Celia" by Theodore Sturgeon.
 
Okay. You win. I just had expensive work done on my car, and I have been resisting any game purchases for the moment, but I am going in at the PDF level on this one. If there an opportunity to up the pledge later on, I'll probably go with a hard copy., as I have full confidence that this will be an impressive physical artifact. Even if I never play this Demon City, it should be some rich inspiration for other games.
 
CRKrueger said:
Goddamnit, I missed it. Zak, I assume the game will be available at some point to non-backers, but how about the Tarot Deck?
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I don't believe that the tarot card stretch goal was reached, which is a disappointment.
 
Zak Smith said:
And, yeah, we got all the stretch goals except the tarot cards, so there won't be any. I didn't want to do them anyway--that's why I made them such a high goal.
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Lol at least you're being honest. :hehe:

I would love that art in a Shin Megami Tensei/Persona tabletop game.
 
So, just out of curiosity, who here backed this, and how do you feel about it now? I see that a LOT of people are refusing the book, and the publisher is offering to sell any such books and donate the proceeds to an anti-abuse charity.
 
Gringnr said:
So, just out of curiosity, who here backed this, and how do you feel about it now? I see that a LOT of people are refusing the book, and the publisher is offering to sell any such books and donate the proceeds to an anti-abuse charity.
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I never backed the book but all I can say is that is a subject that is best discussed elsewhere.

I really don't want any of us to open that can of worms right now. Don't know how the mods feel about it though.
 
I’m going to reopen up this thread to allow people to share their thoughts on this. It may be closed again without warning if political subjects are broached.
 
There is something missing here...on 8/16/18 the last posts were about goals being reached, then suddenly six months later:
Gringnr said:
...a LOT of people are refusing the book, and the publisher is offering to sell any such books and donate the proceeds to an anti-abuse charity.
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w4unx78ovgq11.jpg​
 
Dumarest said:
There is something missing here.
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That something would be political, and get this thread reclosed.

Check any other non-non-political gaming forum, twitter or fb. Edit: Bring your own pop-corn or barf bags as required.
Edit2: not 'political' per se, but very personal, very bad and basically not gaming related.
 
Last edited:
Godfather Punk said:
That something would be political, and get this thread reclosed.

Check any other non-non-political gaming forum, twitter or fb. Edit: Bring your own pop-corn or barf bags as required.
Click to expand...
Eh, don't care enough about the guy to look. Didn't know it was something political.
 
I never liked Zak to begin with, and the recent news concerning his behavior only confirms my hatred of him, although his actions aside, I think it would be bad if the people who did back his Kickstarter did not get the product they paid for because of this tragic news.
 
Geez, it's not really "political" - it's the fact that in 2019, the way you feel about abuse and sexual assault is supposed to be dictated by your political affiliation. Depressing but true.

Anyway, here's a link Patrick Stuart's take; as many will know, he's collaborated with Zak in the past, and they've had a falling out prior to this matter. Read if you want, judge for yourself.

Respecting Baulderstone Baulderstone's statement about what's acceptable: I asked for my name to be removed from the list of backers and the NPC generator. I'm not going to request a refund because (1) there are plenty of other people involved with this project, and (2) it's not possible. Also, I'm one of those people who can enjoy Chinatown and be disgusted with Roman Polanski at the same time.

If I opened a can of worms, mods, feel free to close it.
 
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