[Kickstarter] Demon City by Zak Smith aka. Sabbath

[BedrockBrendan]

Be specific. How did I benefit?

You had his seal of approval.

 

[zweihander]

You had his seal of approval.

So what?

Having Zak’s seal of approval doesn’t win ENnies. Writing a game that drew over 65,000 purchases, well before meeting Zak, won ENnies.

Having a paid marketing plan - like the one WotC and Paizo uses - that engages users on social media drew attention - drew in all manner of fans from D&D circles.

Having a great, supportive community that believes Zweihander is worthy to drive 90k purchaser post GenCon proved success.

Having an amazing company of well-paid artists and designers makes Zweihander worthwhile to be picked up by the largest publisher in the US.

Zak didn’t do any of that, nor did proximity to him. I fucking did.

Be more specific.

 

[BedrockBrendan]

So what?

Having Zak’s seal of approval doesn’t win ENnies. Writing a game that drew over 65,000 purchases, well before meeting Zak, won ENnies.

Having a paid marketing plan - like the one WorC and Paizo uses - that engages users on social media drew attention.

Having a great, supportive community that believes Zweihander is worthy to drive to 90k purchaser post GenCn drove success.

Having an amazing company of well-paid artists and designers makes Zweihander worthwhile to be picked up by the largest publisher in the US.

Zak didn’t do any of that, nor did proximity to him. I fucking did.

Be more specific.

You don't think being as close as you were to Zak when you started getting successful at all benefited you? I don't know all the details, I do remember you getting paraded around with him on a number of PR platforms, and I remember your tagtteam posts with him hear as well. All I know if you seemed pretty tight with the guy, and your business interests seemed pretty closely aligned (at least in terms of the messaging you and he were putting out). Now your shifting attention to other people, when you constantly standing shoulder to shoulder with him. I am sure others who were paying closer attention than I was could add more relevant details.

 

[BedrockBrendan]

And by the way, I am not saying you should be on the defensive for having been close to him (you are not responsible for what goes on in someone else's life), but if you are going to go on this crusade, I think people ought to remember just how close you seemed to be with Zak in the very recent past.

 

[Doc Sammy]

So what?

Having Zak’s seal of approval doesn’t win ENnies. Writing a game that drew over 65,000 purchases, well before meeting Zak, won ENnies.

Having a paid marketing plan - like the one WotC and Paizo uses - that engages users on social media drew attention - drew in all manner of fans from D&D circles.

Having a great, supportive community that believes Zweihander is worthy to drive 90k purchaser post GenCon proved success.

Having an amazing company of well-paid artists and designers makes Zweihander worthwhile to be picked up by the largest publisher in the US.

Zak didn’t do any of that, nor did proximity to him. I fucking did.

Be more specific.

Edit - actually fuck this. You win! You clearly are looking for a fight here, and I want no part of it. I’ll get back to making games; you can continue fighting publishers online for brownie points and being a cynical asshole.

I know I said I'd be bailing on this thread, but I would like to point out that it takes two to fight and you're kind of acting like an asshole in this thread right now.

Stop dragging drama from other websites and attacking random people unrelated to Zak or his actions, and can you lay off the moral grandstanding? Nobody here is defending Zak or his actions.

Also, anyone can self-promote their fan works.

(I just did so right now to prove a point)

Come back when Zweihander is being actively promoted by an actual major publisher like WOTC (or even Paizo, for that matter)

 

[Gringnr]

Can we respect the moderators' wishes to keep this about Zak? Everyone feels strongly about this, including me, but let's cool our tools.

I hate to see Daniel drag others into this, and I also hate to see Daniel get dragged in a thread that's supposed to be about Zak.

 

[Doc Sammy]

The fact that you are a publisher of John Tarnowski’s Games dilutes any opinion I would have of you.

You clearly are looking for a fight here, and I want no part of it. I’ll get back to making games; you can continue fighting publishers online for brownie points, associating with despicable humans like RPG Pundit and being a cynical troll/tired trope of rpg gamers online. I’m done with you.

Lol, I don't publish jack shit and you're the only one trying to pick a fight here.

Take your beef with Pundit elsewhere and drop the subject.

Go work on your Warhammer Fantasy fan fiction game, have a Coke and a smile, and shut the fuck up.

Sorry for being so harsh, but damn if this thread isn't frustrating. Maybe I should follow my own advice and just bail now like I was going to earlier.

Also, let's actually follow the rules the moderators have set, let's focus on Zak and not Pundit, Jim, or zweihander.

 

[BedrockBrendan]

The fact that you are a publisher of John Tarnowski’s Games dilutes any opinion I would have of you.

You clearly are looking for a fight here, and I want no part of it. I’ll get back to making games; you can continue fighting publishers online for brownie points, associating with despicable humans like RPG Pundit and being a cynical troll/tired trope of rpg gamers online. I’m done with you.

Fair enough, but guilt by association swings both ways. As I was pointing out.

 

[zweihander]

Brendan, the fact that you are a publisher of John Tarnowski’s games makes these waters a bit murky.

You clearly are looking for a fight here, and I want no part of it. I’ll get back to making games; you can continue fighting publishers online for brownie points, enabling RPG Pundit and being a cynical troll/tired trope of rpg gamers online.

Edit - I’ll bow out of this thread. It’s a distraction for everyone, and it’s bringing the worst out in me.

 

[Endless Flight]

 

[Baulderstone]

The fact that you are a publisher of John Tarnowski’s Games dilutes any opinion I would have of you.

And again, the guy who was in business with Zak last week (and supposedly knew nothing about Zak, despite keeping a thorough list of controversial Internet people) wants to go after someone for business from years ago. Are you really sure that's a flame you want to keep stoking?

This is why I asked you to keep it on Zak. Next time, don't light kindling that you are standing on.

Any posts not about Zak are getting deleted from here on out.

 

[Simlasa]

I didn't back the Kickstarter, though I was tempted.
After hearing the accusations, which seem plausible and likely, I'm not particularly surprised.
BUT, I did go out and order hardcopies of a couple of his books I'd previously only had on PDF, not to support him but as a middle finger to the mob of people demanding he be shunned... it's still good stuff, despite being written by an asshole.

 

[Bunch]

The Naked Gun movies are still funny even though OJ probably killed his wife

 

[Justin Alexander]

Zak didn’t do any of that, nor did proximity to him. I fucking did.

You are correct to say that you are a tireless self-promoter, Daniel, and clearly willing to seize any opportunity to do so.

But from the outside, it looks like you embraced Zak when it was convenient for you to ignore his victims. And now that it's convenient for you to promote yourself and your brand by "leading" the charge against abusers in the RPG industry, you're doing that.

And that, frankly, looks a little gross. You're taking someone else's tragedy and making it about you.

I, personally, think you're better than that. And so you should be aware of what this looks like from the outside.

its pretty pathetic how some of his old enemies will attempt to conflate his base behavior against these girls with online name-calling.

I've seen this "if you weren't literally raped by him like Mandy was, then you have no right to complain about the rest of his harassment" sentiment in a number of places. Makes no sense to me. The severity of what he did to Mandy and other women in his life doesn't make what he did to all of his other victims acceptable.

Let's not suddenly lionize his opponents, who accused him of entirely different awful behavior then he displayed here.

I would suggest that you have not, in fact, read everything Mandy wrote. She substantiates several specific instances in which Zak was, in fact, guilty of exactly the behavior people were accusing him of. Also: The claim that there's no non-testimonial evidence for any of Zak's incidents of harassment hasn't been true for at least half a decade now. There are plenty of receipts, whether you choose to look at them or not.

I also find "justice by mob" and "deplatforming" horrible concepts, but whatever.

I've also seen this aversion to de-platforming crop up several times in these discussions. I can understand the impulse here, but ultimately these platforms either:

(a) Are the instruments that Zak uses to attack and victimize people; or

(b) They're public spaces and/or professional environments in which allowing Zak's continued participation means either excluding his victims or forcing them to interact with him.

Those who are in control of these platforms who choose NOT to ban people like Zak from them are not only enabling their ability to victimize people, they are often actively participating in it.

 

[David Johansen]

Let's bear in mind that Zak S just has to change his name and he can keep writing and publishing his work. Sure it affects the brand loyalty or whatever but at this point that's probably a plus. He'd need to be pretty careful not to trust anyone who might leak the information but it's easy enough to reinvent yourself on the internet. If I were him I'd start making a name for myself as one of my own detractors and then try to get my enemies to publish my work.

 

[Gringnr]

Let's bear in mind that Zak S just has to change his name and he can keep writing and publishing his work. Sure it affects the brand loyalty or whatever but at this point that's probably a plus. He'd need to be pretty careful not to trust anyone who might leak the information but it's easy enough to reinvent yourself on the internet. If I were him I'd start making a name for myself as one of my own detractors and then try to get my enemies to publish my work.

That would be the most Zak thing ever.

At least, it would be if he was raping while doing it.

 

[Justin Alexander]

BUT, I did go out and order hardcopies of a couple of his books I'd previously only had on PDF, not to support him

Yeeeaahhh... Except it does. Not so much because you consciously gave money to someone you just admitted you think is a rapist, but because you then posted publicly that you were doing it specifically to "give the middle finger" to a "mob" that notably includes the people he raped.

That's really gross. Really, really gross.

 

[CRKrueger]

Zak’s a narcissistic asshole who has a Rainman-like ability for keeping tabs of everything anyone’s ever said about him online, whose argument style alienates everyone, and who burns every bridge he’s ever set foot on in the RPG community.

He also has a tendency to call every one out all of their social media bullshit, which is the real reason most people hate him.

Believe it or not, nothing we know about Zak’s online persona is a “sign” that he is also, allegedly, some kind of psychopathic/sociopathic control freak and serial abuser of women.

There’s plenty of narcissistic assholes who play power games on social media (Hell, near as I can tell that’s what Twitter’s FOR ) and aren’t psychopaths or sociopaths or serial abusers.

From what I know of guys like this, having seen it a few times in real life, the pattern of abuse detailed by the four women fits perfectly. But usually with someone like this, most people have no idea and are completely bamboozled. Usually the people who get any inkling are people close to the abused, sometimes they can tell by changes in their loved one although, terribly, sometimes the families side with the predator so good is his mask and persona.

Zak’s online antics have been escalating over the years and his ability to keep track of everything degenerating, which led to some slips like the fake accounts. However, all the people now crowing I Told You So were enemies of Zak for some other reason, either the aforementioned burned bridge tendency, or simply because he disagreed with them and they couldn’t support their arguments. For example, no matter what Zak has done, there was no evidence for Consultantgate.

A healthy dose of anger is natural, as is a feeling of betrayal, as well as a “How did I not see it” feeling. Satine Phoenix was friends with them for 12 years, being a D&D regular, and she says she had no idea. How can you be expected to?

Still, at the Pub, we don’t need to gloat in schadenfraude, do the monkey dance or the sackcloth and ashes routine, do we?

 

[Justin Alexander]

For example, no matter what Zak has done, there was no evidence for Consultantgate.

At the time, yes. In the 5 years since then, however, plenty of evidence has come out confirming wide swaths of what he was accused of at the time (including, most recently, Mandy's letter). It has also become abundantly clear that the reason there wasn't evidence publicly available at the time was because the eyewitness testimony was suppressed through a campaign of intimidation coordinated by Zak.

 

[noman]

Being an asshole on the internet or having a messed-up sense of humor is NOT the same as actual abuse.

 

[Simlasa]

Yeeeaahhh... Except it does. Not so much because you consciously gave money to someone you just admitted you think is a rapist...

Well, then that 'middle finger' is for you too.
Meanwhile, for people I disagree with/don't like I generally make it a point to buy their stuff second hand... I DO still like and admire James Raggi... but shipping straight from Raggi's basement costs too much.

 

[CRKrueger]

Dan, you’re so full of shit, it’s ridiculous. Your view of ‘problematic’ is just as psychotic as Zak’s, it’s a zero-sum, binary switch.

No one, ever, has accused Pundit of sexual harassment, or rape, or anything remotely in the same ballpark as Fanon or Suleiman, who are nowhere near the same ballpark as Zak. Hell Pundit hasn’t even written a Hentai card game, Grim Jim’s only “offence”.

You want to lump everyone you don’t like in with Zak so you can shoot them all with the same gun, do it elsewhere, no one here’s that stupid.

You want to gain personal power and increase your brand, fine. Fuck $500 dollars. Why don’t you give $5000 directly to Mandy, help her with the doctor bills, Ehler Danos isn’t cheap. Start a Go Fund Me, get interviewed on all the “Podcasts and Twitch Streams That Matter”. You don’t need to plaster all the little,guys with bullshit thing anymore, go be a Big Dog. Operative word being Go.

 

[Doc Sammy]

I'm just glad I never bought or backed any of Zak's works.

 

[CRKrueger]

BTW, Gringnir, could you fix that banner? We have a dark theme for people whose eyes it’s better for, that really ruins it when a blinding white banner is appended to every post. You want to memorizalize being blocked by Zak for some reason, you do you, brother, just with less white please.

 

[Tommy Brownell]

BTW, Gringnir, could you fix that banner? We have a dark theme for people whose eyes it’s better for, that really ruins it when a blinding white banner is appended to every post.

Can confirm.

 

[CRKrueger]

Brendan, the fact that you are a publisher of John Tarnowski’s games makes these waters a bit murky.

You clearly are looking for a fight here, and I want no part of it. I’ll get back to making games; you can continue fighting publishers online for brownie points, enabling RPG Pundit and being a cynical troll/tired trope of rpg gamers online.

Edit - I’ll bow out of this thread. It’s a distraction for everyone, and it’s bringing the worst out in me.

Oh I don’t know, Dan, it certainly was instructive to me.

Everyone knew that while you certainly wrote great games, you were a total asshole online who cared only for pushing his own brand. Now that you’re successful we’re seeing the real motive, being important and involved in the social media sphere and being known for trying to drive out those you disagree with.

Hmm, why does this seem familiar?

 

[Doc Sammy]

I hope that Mandy and the rest of Zak's victims get the help they will inevitably need.

Zak Sabbath is a low-rent disgusting degenerate.

 

[CRKrueger]

By the way, I see nothing wrong with the use of the term “shill”, but perhaps I’m not looking at the right dictionaries.

There’s nothing wrong with the term other than that it fits Fox’s marketing behavior perfectly, and he now charges people to show them how to do it.

 

[Simlasa]

I'm just glad I never bought or backed any of Zak's works.

I dunno, I certainly don't regret enjoying art/books/music/movies from any of the many personalities who later turned out to be toxic assholes and/or out and out criminals... or even the ones I'd heard were jerks BEFORE I saw their work.
THEIR crimes aren't mine just because I like what they've made.

 

[Gringnr]

BTW, Gringnir, could you fix that banner? We have a dark theme for people whose eyes it’s better for, that really ruins it when a blinding white banner is appended to every post. You want to memorizalize being blocked by Zak for some reason, you do you, brother, just with less white please.

Sure, man. I use dark myself.

 

[Doc Sammy]

I dunno, I certainly don't regret enjoying art/books/music/movies from any of the many personalities who later turned out to be toxic assholes and/or out and out criminals... or even the ones I'd heard were jerks BEFORE I saw their work.
THEIR crimes aren't mine just because I like what they've made.

Agreed, but to be honest, what I saw of Zak's works was not that impressive, his heinous actions in his personal life aside.

Even if he didn't do what he did, I would still be glad not to have spent my limited financial resources on his mostly mediocre products

 

[Simlasa]

Even if he didn't do what he did, I would still be glad not to have spent my limited financial resources on his mostly mediocre products

Well yeah, matters of taste are a whole different matter.
Maybe I just get my hackles up from ever time a person spotted Lovecraft on my bookshelf and felt the need to educate me on what a horrible person he was.

 

[Endless Flight]

The Naked Gun movies are still funny even though OJ probably killed his wife

 

[CRKrueger]

At the time, yes. In the 5 years since then, however, plenty of evidence has come out confirming wide swaths of what he was accused of at the time (including, most recently, Mandy's letter). It has also become abundantly clear that the reason there wasn't evidence publicly available at the time was because the eyewitness testimony was suppressed through a campaign of intimidation coordinated by Zak.

Maybe I missed it, but where in Mandy’s letter does she call him a transphobe?

 

[Justin Alexander]

Maybe I missed it, but where in Mandy’s letter does she call him a transphobe?

Okay. For clarity, are you:

(1) Claiming that the entirety of Consultantgate was about Zak being a transphobe?

or

(2) Just implicitly conceding that you were wrong?

 

[CRKrueger]

You’re the one who agreed that there was no evidence of the accusations of Consultantgate at the time, thereby making the accusations baseless. Anyone who had private evidence was free to send it to Mike Mearls. Either they did not, or the evidence they sent was what we all knew - Zak was an aggressive asshole who never let anything drop and whose style of argumentation pissed everyone off. If that alone was worthy of being unpersoned, you would have gone right along with him, nobody particularly likes you either.

Consultantgate wasn’t just about Transphobia, but get real, that was the real sin they were being accused of. That was the sin that they would hook all the petty vendettas to in order to erase Zak and Pundejo. And that sin, was one Mandy did not accuse him of (although she may clarify that at some point) which is why you’re deflecting.

Just like now, Zak’s crimes will be used to invalidate every argument he ever made and make any person he ever tussled with online a hero who was trying to protect us from this monster in our midst. It’s bullshit.

 

[CRKrueger]

I mean Jesus Christ, Sage LaTorra actually has the gall to say that Zak starting another discussion to continue an argument after Sage dropped it was “online harassment” and “while obviously nothing like Mandy had to go through,dude had a pattern”.

He’s literally conflating Zak not wanting to drop an argument with the 12 years of hell Mandy went through. It’s not a difference of kind, but a difference of degree as he sees it. Fucking amazing.

Nothing trivializes what Mandy went through more than people claiming kinship with her because Zak was mean to them on the internet.

Zak’s not the only pathological narcissist on the internet, not by a fucking long shot.

 

[Jetstream]

Goddamn. Glad to know my "douchebag" sense was working well enough. Knew there was something I didn't like about that guy.

Also, sorry, sorry, i swear if I post again it'll be about Zak, but there is one thing I need to say.

(snip)
I don’t mean any offense by this, but don’t tell me how I feel. This has nothing to do with an axe to grind, vendetta or “need to shill” on his forum. And in case you didn’t know, shill is an incredibly racially-charged word to use, particularly when volleyed at any publisher you’d invite to participate in this forum.
(snip)

Citation. Goddamned. Needed.

I've gone up and down the etymology and history of the word. Prove it or you're making shit up.

 

[Gringnr]

Goddamn. Glad to know my "douchebag" sense was working well enough. Knew there was something I didn't like about that guy.

Also, sorry, sorry, i swear if I post again it'll be about Zak, but there is one thing I need to say.



Citation. Goddamned. Needed.

I've gone up and down the etymology and history of the word. Prove it or you're making shit up.

It's a thing among racists, using the word like that, but I don't think that's how Baulderstone meant it. Just because a word is in vogue among internet shitheads, that doesn't mean that we should see racism in its every use, especially when it is being used properly.

 

[Bunch]

If shill is supposed to be somehow derogatory I can't find anything backing it up. Including folks attempting and failing to find any Yiddish word similar to it. Best I can find is it is a shortened version of a word for a person who pretends to buy tickets after a huckster finishes his speech.